Any professional / user opinions on the stuff. It's been getting some mild attention and seems like a less expensive alternative to Zymol.
Has anyone used it and have any feelings on the matter?

 

Never used it, but then again I'm not a big Carnuaba fan either....

 

I don't think that it is fair or accurate to say that it is really an alternative to Zymol. You aren't really comparing Apples to Apples in that comparison.

They are going to be somewhat similar in their composition, and you can indeed apply Dodo Juice by hand the same way that Zymol is applied, but that is just one part of the picture.

I have heard good things about them definitely, but I wouldn't go as far as to suggest them as a substitute for a wax like Zymol of Swissvax.

 

I didn't mean alternative as in apples to apples, I know far too little about it to say that. I meant I was also considering Zymol and wanted to know about this stuff too.

Could you outline why they are different? The base similarity I noticed is that they are carnuaba products, aside from that I don't really know much.

Josh any particular reason you don't use it? I've always been a fan of your work, I'd greatly appreciate your opinion as well. I'm a current Zaino user but I like to sample around...

 

It is definitely true that they are both carnauba, and it is also true that either can be applied by hand rather than with an applicator.

Now while I don't know a great deal about the composition of Dodo Juice, I know a great deal more about the composition of Zymol.

The biggest deal with Zymol products is that they are 100% natural. Most carnauba waxes contain a great deal of solvents and oils. This is necessary to keep the carnauba composition in a workable state. The reason that the higher end carnauba waxes such as Vintage or Royale are so expensive, is because it takes a great deal more to keep those waxes still workable but with a very high wax content.

Standard carnauba in its natural state has a yellowish tint and it is EXTREMELY hard. This is great for its durability when it is on your car, but very bad for its workability in an unprocessed form. The carnauba found in most Zymol Glazes is bleached white so it has no color, and can try totally clear. This is beneficial for maintaining color evenness over the cars surface, and to prevent staining and discoloration should it get on trim or anything else. Those same glazes are packed with many natural oils to keep that carnauba suspended in a workable state rather than solidifying into a little carnauba rock again.

As you apply the wax with your hands, the oils from your skin and the friction from working your hands together helps to further break down the carnauba; this is especially important on the ultra high content waxes like Vintage and Royale. After the wax is applied to the surface, and this facet applies to any wax, it is left to cure. This curing process is actually an outgassing of those oils and solvents that kept the wax suspended in a workable state, and allowing the wax to once again return to its natural state of hardness. This is why it works well as a paint sealant.

So basically when you look into a high end carnauba wax such as Zymol, you are essentially paying for its content of all natural ingredients, and its high 100% bleached white carnauba content.

As for your second question of why carnauba over something like Zaino, that is much more subjective. Many of the polymer based sealants like Zanio provide a great deal of gloss and protection, but are perceived by some to have less depth and color enhancement than something like a carnauba. Once again, this facet is much more subjective. If you ask 5 professionals, you are likely to get at least 2 or 3 different answers.

The second part of that equation is durability. Polymer based sealants are designed to be more durable since they are made in a lab, whereas carnaubas are more natural and can't be specifically engineered for durability. The contrast there, especially with the high carnauba content waxes such as Vintage or Royale, is that you can have equal if not greater durability numbers than some polymers. Once again though, that contrast from carnauba to polymer is again, subjective.

This here is where being a professional is hard because there isn't just one right answer. Finding the answer that suits your preferences best is purely a matter of education and trial and error. So learn what you can about everything you are looking at and make a well informed decision. Part of getting to that state of "well informed" typically means trying these things out for yourself and seeing what you think.

Like I said, there isn't just one right answer, but to the benefit of everyone on this forum, there are actually quite a few good answers.

 

im a big fan of DODO Supernatural!

 

Here is an excellent write up from one of the best detailers IMO in the country. He's actually a dealer for dodo juice too so it may surprise you at what you read, but to my knowledge this is more factual info than opinionated info.


By Todd Helme,

Car wax, sounds simple, right?? Simply go to the store, by the one in with the flashiest packaging (or the one your friend told you was great), rub it on, smoke a cigarette and drink a beer, and wipe it off. You car will look amazing, and a night on the town will result in bikini clad women (and sometimes thong wearing men) chasing you down the street…

The truth is, sadly, that car wax is really one of the most misunderstood products in the car care industry.

What is car wax and what does it do?

Car “wax” is a generic term that is used to represent a broader category: LSPs. LSP stands for Last Step Product/Protectant, coined by Mike Phillips from Meguiars’. The purpose of an LSP is to provide protection from the elements including environmental and UV damage, as well as increase the gloss and appearance of the vehicle. In the LSP range, there are two very distinct categories: natural (wax) and synthetic (sealant).

Natural automotive wax in made from #1 carnauba wax, which is harder then concrete in its original state. The wax provides a renewable sacrificial barrier to the elements. Automotive carnauba wax is often blended with oils and silicone to increase the reflection and create the liquid, deep look that it is famous for. Pure carnauba wax is opaque and rather dull (gummy bear are encased in pure carnauba).

Pros of natural wax: Carnauba wax tends to produce a deeper shine (this is caused by distortion on the paint’s surface known as jetting). This means the reflective surface of the paint seems inside of the paint, like a mirror at the bottom of the pool. The natural wax seems to provide slightly better protection against environmental damage, such as acid rain damage and bug damage. Because the wax swells when it becomes wet it has a very high propensity for beading and shedding water.

Cons of natural wax: While oils and solvents blended into the wax product increase the temperature of the melting point of the wax, it still will become unstable in high heat. This means daily driven cars, subjected to natural (and hot) sunlight and surface temperatures will see a dramatic reduction in the life of the wax. Garage kept cars might see 4-5 months of durability, where as frequently enjoyed vehicles will see much less.

Synthetic Sealants or man made LSPs represent the opposite end of the spectrum. Based on silicone or acrylic polymers, synthetic sealants tend to form a much strong bond to the paint’s surface. This increases the durability of the product, giving it a longer duration of protection. A new trend in synthetic sealants is to call them waxes (confusing the marketplace) as well as add oils to the blend. While this produces a deeper look, it also has a negative effect on the durability of the product (case in point is Meguiars’ NXT “wax” that is actually an oil based sealant. The look is very nice but the durability is very short).

Pros of Synthetic Sealants: Durability. Because of the scientific limitations of natural wax, pure synthetic sealants are generally less influenced by out side factors and have a longer life of 4-6 months of solid protection. Modern sealants have also dramatically improved there appearance, often producing a brighter, glossier surface (that was once criticized as plastic looking).

Cons of Synthetics: Some systems, such as Zaino Show Car Polish, require specific pre work and product mixing for maximum results. Also, while brighter and glossier in appearance, synthetics tend to lack the glow and deep that a natural wax produces. While longer lasting, there is debate as to whether the protection provided by sealants against environmental factors is as good as that as provided by a carnauba wax.

Choosing a wax or a sealant

First you must examine your goals and your tastes. In general, if the vehicle is driven often and/or you are a little relaxed when it comes to protecting your investment, then a sealant may be a better choice. If you prefer that deep warm look that a natural carnauba wax provides and do not mind more frequent application, then your choice would lean to carnauba waxes.

A lot of different people (and detailers) will have preferences regarding certain products and nobody is right. There is no best wax or sealant and to some degree (minus rampant misinformation) nobody is wrong.

I used the best wax or sealant I could and I still don’t like the appearance of my paint.

LSPs only do so much. A layer of product that is maybe a micron thick (1/1,000,000 mm) can only be asked to do so much. The true quality of the paint (and the gloss and reflection) is directly responsible for the final appearance. Scratches and damage on the paint's surface (even microscopic in size) act to refract or scatter the light reflected on the surface, reducing the potential gloss. When paint is microscopically level and milled like a diamond, it will reflect light perfectly.

Perfect paint will look perfect regardless of the LSP used. An LSP provides maybe 5% of the appearance of the paint, the paint itself (and the condition of it) provides the rest. It is in the prep work that occurs before applying the wax or sealant.


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Since the 1990’s there has been huge growth in the boutique wax market. Some companies charge as much as $25,000.00 for a vat of wax! What is going on?

A common theme is for some companies to charge more money based on the actual carnauba content of the wax they use. All carnauba wax used in automotive products is #1 grade yellow carnauba. It actually ranges in color in raw form from a paste like tan to darker brown, depending on the age of the wax itself. Refining and bleaching have led to some companies to claim to use “Ivory” or “White” carnauba wax, that simply does not exist. Also the natural wax is very hard in bare forum, harder then concrete. It most be mixed with oils and solvents to soften the raw wax and make it applicable to modern paint systems. VOC regulations have limited the types of solvents and oils used, which has limited the actual percentage of raw carnauba wax in the formula. Keep in mind that carnauba wax is fairly cheap and often the least expensive ingredient in the formula, so you would be paying more for less. (The oils are far more expensive).

VOC regulations on solvents have limited the amount of blend able raw carnauba to about 35% by wet volume or density. So how can some companies claim to have as much as 80% carnauba wax in the formulas they sell? I don’t know exactly (asking these companies how they measure the wax they make often leads to non returned phone calls and promises of an answer that never materialize) but I have an idea.

Example: Carnauba wax is very flakey and fluffy in raw forum (it is scraped off the fawns of a carnauba palm). It is then mixed with oils and solvents. Take a 100 gallon drum and fill it 8/10ths of the way full with feathers (that represent the flakey carnauba wax). Now fill it to the top with water (solvents and oils). Will it only take 20 gallons of water to be full? Of course not, in fact, the gaps and spaces around the feathers are filled with liquid, it might be possible to fit 70 gallons or more of water into the 100 gallon drum already filled with 80 gallons of feathers.

This can be looked at three ways:

1) Since there was (kind of) 80 gallons of feathers, the product is 80% feather. This is
misleading. Volume should never be measured by mixing dry volume with wet volume, so the
phrase is almost laughable.

2) Since there are 70 gallons of water and 80 gallons of feathers, we have 150 total gallons of
product (in a 100 gallon drum). This could be stated that the product is 53% feather, but again
this is false and misleading.

3) Scientifically there is only 100 gallons of total product. By wet volume this would be 70 gallons
of water and 30 gallons of feather. This means the product is truthfully 30% feather, but
when used in wax terms, this is less impressive (though more honest) then 80%

No company or organization exists (such as the F.D.A.) to regulate the claims made by car care products and no company exists (such as A.S.E.) to regulate the quality of the products. We are left to fend for ourselves.

Another myth is that certain waxes are made for certain paints (by company or origin). This one is false because in today’s global market, Ferraris are painted with Mercedes’ paint (which is made in the USA) and Lamborghini’s get Audi paint. There is no such thing as Italian paint, German paint, etc… There is just paint. However paint can be blended with certain oils to increase the color range of particular hues (warm colors such as red and orange, for example). Since most “Italian paint” cars are red or yellow, this would make more sense.

I have been told that waxing my car will rub the paint right off, is this truth? Older, single stage lacquer paint jobs oxidize fairly quickly. This myth (though no longer applicable) is because older waxes, designed to be used on single stage lacquer paint, used abrasives and polishing agents that would scrub and remove the dead, oxidized paint.

Modern clear coated paint does not oxidize and no longer needs these cleaning agents and abrasives. In the old days the abrasives would eventually polish the paint off of the car, but modern waxes and sealants do not contain these unnecessary products. If the LSP is deemed ‘clear coat safe’ it is perfectly okay to wax the vehicle as often as you would like.

Can I ‘over wax’ my car? Not really. All LSPs feature solvent contents to deliver the solids in the formula to the paint’s surface. When additional coats of sealant or wax are applied, the agitation of the new product acts to loose and re-emulsify the existing coat. Paint can only accept so much product (between 2-5 coats of wax and maybe more for sealants) the rest is wiped away with the residue. One coat is sufficient but more coats are never bad, and if you enjoy waxing and caring for your baby, then have a good time.

How often should I wax my vehicle? This depends on many external factors. Cars that are frequently exposed to the environment will require more upkeep. When you notice degradation in the feel (slickness or smoothness of the paint), degradation in gloss, or a degradation of the water beading characteristics then it is often a good time to reapply your LSP. Use common sense, and when it doubt, go ahead and do it.

 

Thank you for the compliment.

Personally, I never heard of it till just a few months ago and as I mentioned I'm not a fan of Carnuaba waxes. They just do not last long enough for me to justify investing my hard earned $$$ into them. Also in regards to Carnuaba, if I understand it correctly it flashes or melts/evaporates at roughly 130 degrees so it just doesn't last out in the sun as surfaces easily sore over 150-180 in the TX heat.

Also I prefer to fully polish all the defects out of the finish and after that it's really anybodies guess in which looks the better.

I've only tested a handful of different waxes and sealants, (still trying to get my hands on more but there's just way too many) and in those conclusions I've always come back to Zaino as my sealant of choice.

 

Thanks to both of you for your responses. As knowledgeable as I thought I was about detailing, those were some incredibly informative posts.

I guess I'll finish up my supply of Zaino and then decide what I want to do.
I do love the durability of the product, my car is a DD that will see all seasons and lots of use.
Also it's a light blue metallic, which was my second choice in color as I couldn't find a black one I liked, but in retrospect, its much easier to maintain.
That being said, it will never have the depth of shine of a dark car. I initially didn't know much about Zaino, but after use, I think for a DD it is a good choice. I like to experiment with things, but considering price/performance, I guess Zaino is hard to beat when you're not going for a concours look.

Thanks again for both of your posts.
PS J/anyone else that has had Sunset Wheat, does it not remind you of Trix cereal? Think about it...

 

Josh. Great write up and explanation! Their are quite a few misconceptions about different types of waxes and synthetic polishes on the market. Makes it very confusing for the end user and professional, which usually is much hype or marketing.

Everyone is going to have their favorite product because they want to achieve different result results whether its for gloss and durability or they want a concours finish.

I have spent years as a professional detailer buying 100's of different types of carnuba waxes and synthetic sealants.My obsession for the perfect finish started over 20 years ago which drove me to develop gloss-it detail products.

You might want to take a look at our gloss finish and soon to be release Concorso gloss. What your missing with Zaino in depth, clarity and color enhancement you will will achieve with gloss finish. Visit glossitonline.com for pic's and info from other users and professionals.

Pm me with any questions.

Rich

 

here's a big write up i did about Supernatural and the dodo factory replied to it.

http://www.detailingbliss.com/forum/...rime-5166.html

 

You know what would be helpful, since the debate of Synthetic vs Natural is subjective and since Natural invariably is much more expensive than syntetic, can side by side pictures show the differences? Or does it really have to be seen in person. Has anyone done a true side by side comparison.

 

there have been side by side tests, and from pictures, at least i can never tell the difference.

 

Tests are very hard to do correctly. In any test, if you are trying to compare one variable to another, all others must be held constant and that's tough to do really. People have produced results by prepping one panel of a car the same and finishing with 2 products, the amount still varies of how much went on and etc...

In internet pictures it's impossible to tell as mere differences in lighting and even just angle of picture can appear very differently.
I'm fairly convinced that for the most part that product results are 99% similar when comparing high end to high end or low end to low end. It comes down to what you prefer to use and the pros and cons of each.