The Ferrari is still lighter whatever it's made from.

The LF-A uses 3 different types of CF but it looks like the 12C's monocell is still more advanced (and crucially lighter) and the brakes with forged aluminium hubs save 8kg compared to the optional CCBs:

http://www.autozine.co.uk/nieuws/nie...ef.php?nk=9095

CCBs also perform pretty badly in ordinary road car or single lap circumstances but you can still get them as an option, which will cost you less than the $200k difference I'd imagine.

Yeah, big difference between $150k and $420k.

I'm guessing that at 6 times the price it's irrelevant.

 

+1. The entire design is different.

 

I'm not talking about the weight savings, rather the technology difference between the two. The aluminum hubs on the McLaren aren't a new technology either. I think Mercedes offers that as an option to some AMG cars. The
Also regarding the Ferrari, its engine/transmission is a development of the California's, which will sell ~2000 units per year. The 458 will likely sell in similar numbers to the F430 (about 12k units of all variants by the end of production). You're looking at something around 20k units, a massive benefit in amortization (40x's) compared to only 500 units for the LFA.

The LFA has a massively more comprehensive development program behind it. By comparison, the GT was developed on a shoestring budget. Not to mention to get 550 hp out of the GT's engine using supercharging is relatively easy. The LFA's engine is much more exotic. The GT's aluminum spaceframe is also not as exotic, nor are its brakes. And its interior is much more spartan, as it was supposed to be.
The LFA costs 2.8x's more, fine. The GT sold 8x's as many units, an even greater difference which alone can account for the price difference even before you consider the differences in development and construction.


Again, compare the build process, build quality, customization and production numbers and you'll see the price isn't so farfetched. In the UK alone, 900 GT-R's have already been delivered after just a few months on the market. Nissan sells almost the entire LFA production number in GT-R's in the US every 5-6 months.

For an example of what build process and and limited numbers can do, consider the BMW Z8 vs the E39 M5. Or the price difference between the lowliest Merc SL (81K Euro) and the SL65 AMG Black Series (327K Euro; still based on the standard SL steel structure and fitted with a modified S65 engine). The price difference between the SL's isn't all down to mechanical differences. MB know they can charge that much because there are only 300 of the Black Series being built.

 

The ZR1 and LFA are truely soul mates, in concept, design and what an incredible bargain the ZR1 is! LFA popup spoiler is cute and interior is very civilized. Can't imagine getting in there with a full race suit and helmet and a fire extinguisher will ruin the decor.

 

Firstly, technology is a means to an end, not an end in itself. If the technology doesn't achieve a result that's better than the competition, it's pointless.

So by your token, if they reduced F458 sales to 500 it should be worth $400k even though it's the same car.

Your arguments are nothing arguments. The budget used is irrelevant, it's the end product that counts. A big budget could just be the sign of a badly ran project.

Why do you keep bringing production numbers into it? FFS, if I make a limited edition supply of 500 pieces of rubber dog **** made with big budget nanotechnology, does that make them worth $400k each. The really weird thing is that we all agreed that the SpecV was over-priced, yet it's still a faster car than the LF-A for less money, with just as much high-tech.

Oh I know the whole supply and demand thing and agree that they'll sell but it's all speculative bollox, the bare meat of the LF-A as a tool rather than an antique is only worth $200k.

 

Quite possibly, did you forget the Enzo? 499 made at a sticker of how much? The F458 should be faster than an Enzo as a 430 Scud can almost match it. But the Enzo was a limit prod. one-off right? Wait what..?

Because production numbers are a huge deal when it comes to price. A Black series Merc is "just" a hyped up version of a normal Merc no? But with low production numbers, and some special parts, it drives the price up to like $400,000ish?

 

A "Limited Quantity" car from Lexus is an oximoron as would be a "Limited Quantity" watch from Timex . Every other car is a Lexus or Toyota in CA it seems. Lexus/Toyota produce in an hour what the exotic brands make in a year ~ so the concept of "Limited Production" does not apply. Even the highest production cars from Europe (Mercedes/BMW/Porsche) are still considered exotics in many places in the world compared to Toyotas and Hondas. Toyota or GM probably makes 100x as many as cars as these other companies combined.

However THERE IS IN FACT a sucker born everyday in the usual places so I am sure every copy will be sold.

 

There's this thing called 'time' right and as it passes technology improves and cars get faster. The Enzo will be almost 10 years old when the LFA comes out. Competing with a car from 2002 really isn't acceptable. A GT3.2 RS is faster than a Carrera GT on track. Does that mean it should cost $600k?

I know, which is why they chose to make a limited run to manipulate the price. Doesn't make the car worth $420k in real terms though. A car's supposed to be judged by how good it is to drive, not how it can sit in an air-conditioned barn. Hell, GM could mildy tune a ZR1, make 500 and sell them for $200k. Doesn't make them worth that though.

 

The LFA for all practical purposes is a collectors item for folks that like asian cars. There is no way to calculate a price for an item like this. A tuned Porsche will blow the doors off the LFA on the track and a Mercedes S class will deliver 10x the luxury. So if you MUST have both in a package and have $400K laying around then "Oh what a feeling ...Toyota" delivers again for you. The 1960's 2000GTseemed to have been a very similar thing to LFA - 337 made and technology exercise for TMC. And yes they all sit in air-conditioned barns. They are easily worth 20x what they originally cost.

 

No of course not! A GTR can beat 99% of the cars out there on a track, yet it's still a "bargain". It's great value, but I'm sure most of us would take a slower Ferrari over a GTR. Competing with a 10 year old car? Ha! I wonder how many supercars today are competing with the 242 mph McLaren F1, and how old is that thing? =P

I'm not a Lexus fanboy or anything... nor will I buy the car if I had the money. I'm just trying to get people to understand the POINT of the car. It was never meant to be the fastest thing ever, nor to outprice a GTR, none of that... it's just a MARKETTING exercise by Lexus to gain more brand recognition and cast a halo over its mainstream sporty offerings.

 

The model itself is limited production. Your attempt at lumping manufacturer and model together holds no validity in this aspect.

If a sucker is born every day, a badge ***** must be born every minute.

 

Please debate the following line of logic if you can:

Toyota/Lexus to Timex is what Ferrari is to Rolex.

Brand ****** buy Rolex and Ferrari and Versaci and they are beautifully made products but not superior in function. In defense of Porsche 911 it is the toughest, most honest car I ever owned (Japenese, German, or Italian) with rock solid performance and surgical precision.


What Toyota should have done with the LFA is what Timex did with Versaci (see below.) They should have branded LFA under Zonda or some other italian brand. Making money was not the point however ~ pissing on the Germans on their own track was. This is only good for us in the long run. Porsche has to respond back or die.


http://www.bookofjoe.com/2007/06/breaking-news-w.html

 

I wasn't very excited about this car from what I saw in mags/internet for the past few years... but then I saw the car in person at SEMA last week. OMG! I got to see it, touch it, feel it, poke my head inside etc... I was blown away. It is truly incredible in person. It is still insanely expensive, but if I were a billionaire, I'd def order one.

Have you heard the exhaust note? Jizz in my pants.

 

That would have been real nice if Toyota built something like this instead.

 

Wait, we don't know the end result of this technology yet. By all indications, this technology is just a stepping stone. How do you know for a fact that some of the technologies in the LFA won't be used to make CF/CFRP cheaper for use in mainstream Toyota vehicles? You can't tell the future.

If enough people buy it $400K, then it's worth $400K. And based on the usual 2-year wait period for V8 Ferraris, you can bet one that is limited to 500 units @ $400k would sell out immediately. You seriously think every single Enzo sold at only MSRP and no more? Think again.

Answer my point about Z8 vs M5, and AMG Black Series and you'll understand why production numbers matter. Rubber dog **** = LFA? Ok, now we see where you really stand on this.

According to your theory that technology as a means which manifests itself in performance, then yes, the GT3 should cost as much as a CGT. Now, ask yourself why it doesn't and what that says about the bang-for-buck argument.

Then why doesn't GM do it? If you say something like "They don't want to ***** out the Corvette brand" then I'll have a good laugh.
The ZR1 makes a Murcielago or F430 redundant and thus a waste of money, right? I guess only idiots buy Lambos and Ferraris. Or GT-R's; you can get a used Corvette and modify it to kill the GT-R for a fraction of the price. All smart people should just buy Corvettes and tune 'em up. Take your bang-for-buck argument to its logical end and only performance-minded idiots buy anything with more than 2 wheels...

Have you driven the LFA? More to the point, can you afford to buy an LFA? If not in both cases, then who are you to say the car is not worth it?
Based on some initial drive reports already, it is better to drive than a 599 GTB and offers Scuderia-levels of driver involvement. Can you say the same thing about the GT-R? Doubt it. And it hasn't been proven that the Spec-V is faster than the GT-R.