I'm not dissapointed, because I know better. One day of seat time in a GT3 doesnt make you good at driving one. The GT3 seperates the men from the boys. And dont group the GT3 into the other tests. The only realistic test between the GT-R and GT3 was done by Harris, since then , other than best motoring, which doesnt count, there hasnt been any such thing. And even the test by Harris was garbage because of the conditions they tested in, but still the GT3 would have molested the GT-R had Harris got a couple more laps. But of course that would have defeated the purpose of making the GT-R win.

 

Haha, I wouldn't say nobody cares, but I do agree. The GT-R and GT3 are completely different and shouldn't be compared. I remember when I fell in love with 911's. I know, without a doubt, that I will never ever ever fall in love with the GT-R. Therefore, any 911 is twice the car a GT-R is. IMO, of course.

 

If your entire thesis is based on the fact we didn't set a track record out there, then I'm sorry to disappoint. With track temperatures over 100 degrees that day, it wasn't going to happen. However that affected the GT-R and GT3 equally. Keep in mind too the COBB tunning GT-R with R-compounds, tune and exhaust did a 1:30 that same day.

Could we have gone faster in each car? sure, but Sam had 1 reconnaissance lap, and three hot laps to make his time. Even Andy Pilgrim would be hard pressed to set a track record inside of three laps on a 100 degree+ day.

Doesn't change the fact the GT3 didn't win either, the conditions affected both cars.

 

I agree, from a visceral engagement feel the GT3 is far superior to the GT-R. It's a very engaging raw car that is very rewarding to drive fast.

 

That also doesnt change the fact that the GT3 was in no condition to do a proper fast lap. The lap the GT3 did is about what you'd see from a intermediate DE driver in a fresh car. For short stints, 100* is not all that bad, other than sapping power, the heat helps the MPSC get up to temp quickly where they usually take a long time.

This test is obviously useless from comparing cars running at their best as was the one with the techart kit on it that was several seconds slower than a stock 997 TT. What is that proving when a car shows up with dead tires other than NOTHING?

Head to Head, or whoever runs these tests ought to at least ensure that the cars are properly prepared before they show up, these results render the tests useless to anyone who knows better.

I'd bet you money we have several people here who do this for fun that could go to that track and within one weekend if not within the first day be faster than 1:36 in a stock GT3. One with decent tires of course. That is hardly representative of a professionally driven lap. Not bashing Hubinette at all, he seems consistent, but that cars tires were crap hence the owner comments before the lap ("if the tires hold up")

I've never seen MPSC look that bad and I've driven on them bald on a partially wet track.

 

Besdies, we have guys here in Boxster S's on R comps that run 1:39.

You can hope and wish this test is even remotely accurate, but it's not even in the ballpark. The GT3 in pro hands is a sub 1:30 car at that track. 2-3 seconds slower is understandable due to changing conditions. 6 seconds is not.

 

Chris James was at the track with us, and he holds the record for Formula Mazda. I can think of few people more qualified than him to offer an opinion on the methodology, and his comment was the cars performed as expected.

We're not trying to say that 1:36 is the best time a GT3 can achieve, it is simply the time it achieved that day in those conditions. Given more testing and tuning a few seconds faster might have been achievable, and perhaps on a different day a few more. Again we were not there to set track records, only offer a typical track run for both cars and that is how the GT3 performed.

My company distros for them, but the owners are Torque.tv who are the same crew that started SPEED vision. Great group of people, I feel lucky to work closely with them, and flattered that they invited us to help with the shoot.

Who preps the cars? That's the responsibility of the owner. The TechArt GT-Street was the least prepared car for the day, but that is the responsibility of Tech-Art to provide their best effort.

I bet you money that if they had three laps on a 100+ temp day 1:36 would be one of the better times. If you can afford to buy a fresh set of tires EVERY time you hit the track, and had all day to work on your technique and time then I'm positive faster times would have been achieved.

 

I didnt say fresh, I said DECENT!!!! And those tires WERE NOT THAT. It's very evident too for anyone watching the video. The GT3 is 415 hp, it would not break good tires loose that easily.


At least have a decent effort put forth and no complaints, but that was pathetic.

 

Come on. The "tests" in the original post were terrible. Again here is 2.5 liter Boxster time on Toyo 888's that was 3 seconds faster than the GT3 time that is compared to the GTR?

http://www.specboxster.com/tracks.html

Guys driving the GT3 didnt know how to drive the car if 1:36 was best time they could set. 100 Degrees? Perhaps all those burnouts and drift sessions overheated his tires?


The reason you see difference with poor drivers is due to ease of driving the AWD turbo GTR that has more available power when shifts are not optimised and when corner entry and exit speeds are not fast. GT3 should have been running sub 1:30 times regadless of temps with an expereinced 911 driver.

To add insult to injury Willow Springs is a power course. The GTR in this test barely beat the verified time of a 10 year old 2.5 liter Boxster on Toyo DOT tires. 133.1 Boxster to 132.7 GTR

Better yet you can buy a nice used 2.5 Boxster for less than $10K these days. GTR is over priced at $70K if you ask me. I suspect resale on the GTR will plummet like other Nissans. I would buy a low mileage GTR for $20K a couple years from now, but it appears these things already have reliability issues based on wat I have been reading on forums. Still its a cool sort of "fast and furious" type of car that would be fun to drive for a short period of time until the novelty wears off.

 

I must admit I'm Porsche biased as I've raced with the POC & PCA for 20 plus years and my home track is Willow Springs. I've also raced with many other clubs and have a fair idea what cars lap the track at.

One thing that has not been mentioned is that WSIR is at 2600 ft. elevation.
In NA cars this is a 8-10% power loss and zero for turbo cars. Secondly the
rear biased cars are a handful through turn 8 which is the most critical corner for really fast times. No matter how good porsche tries to covience you they've over come the tail wagging the law of physics in turn 8 will prove otherwise. Even in a full race all wheel drive turbo you have to be perfect on your turn in.

The the 7GT3 falls into class "NI" which means N improved and would allow for R tires and any suspension. The Club record is 1:31.7 in a 6GT3. This would be for a better set up car than the one tested. Secondly, Boxsters fall in class K. With R tires and ANY suspension the record is 1:37! Michael Schumacher couldn't get a stock Boxster to do a 1:35 on SLICKS!.

Same day, same conditions, same driver is a pretty fair comparison as to the capabilites of the cars. The 7GT3's I've raced the times are pretty close to Sam's results. The GT-R was quicker as it had better grip and could put the power down sooner, easier to drive in the high speed corners and better aero. Now the question...Does a 1:32 at Willow give you a chance of a 7:29 at the Nurbringring. NFW!
Jimmy

 

So you're saying a pro driver in a GT3 should only be 2 seconds faster than the fastest K class boxster?

I've seen guy who raced SWC a few times beat whatever the old class for the 996 GT3 was by a few seconds, and several other guys who've never raced match the times. I'm not sure how NI relates to the old classes, but 2 seconds faster than boxster record is nothing near the capabilities of the GT3.

Considering Sam was able to nearly match Steve Millens time in the GT-R, it doesnt make sense that he's 4 seconds slower in the GT3 vs the RS when we all know the RS is bells and whistles and isnt any faster.

Still doesnt add up. A pro driver in a 997 GT3 should be towards the back of the 996 GT3 cup class , at least from what I've seen, and that should be a driving smooth and easy without really having to push the car.

PCA events dont always have the best sample of racer, even the bigger events.


That NASA TTA record at 1:29 says enough for me, there isnt a track in the country a stock GT3 wouldnt beat any TTA class car.

 

No, I think you've missed my point. WSIR favors the GT-R and showcases it better than the GT3 no matter who's driving be it pro or club for street cars. It's just the design configuration of the track. I beleive that your contending that the time was too slow and the driver wasn't orientied towards porsches. I took issue based on my experience driving porsche and racing 7gt3 that that was a representive time for street cars. That's a reasonable difference of opinion.

Nasa is a great organization and allows all types of vehicles to compete with modifications. The problem with comparing times from their events as you never know what modifications an individual car is running.
Jimmy

 

I understand that WSIR may favor the GT-R, I have no problem with that, but it's obvious from watching the video, if you watched it, that there was something wrong with that car. He couldnt take any turn without it going into oversteer, and this was just the warmup/show laps.

There is no way you could think that car was in shape to do a decent lap.

Nasa does allow all kinds of cars, but like I said I know the TTA National champ and the boy can driver his BUTT OFF, I also know of SEVERAL guys that he couldnt beat in GT3's, not because of the driver, but because of the car.

There is no chance in all the world that a GT3 is 7 seconds slower than a TTA car on any track in the country, in fact there is no track that a GT3 is slower than a TTA car at all. NASA may allow all kinds of cars, but the GT3 starts in TTS because it's too fast for TTA even stock, and there is no car in TTA with the very limited amount of mods that is faster than a 7 GT3.

 

HC,
I reviewed the vid in slowmo trying to be objective . The showboating by Sam is in turns 3 & 4 which are throw away corners. Still a few tenths. But what I did see is that the GT3 appears to have been lowered in the front. If thats the case it only exagerates the oversteer... but its good theater. Also Sam mentions he's doing 150 on the main straight. I've had the radar on Cup Cars and their only in the 140's. More theater. There in lies the problem as it takes a very capable driver to extract the max out of the Gt3.
And if the set up is wrong they are a handful. Props to GT-R. Now, how long will that GT-R last?
Jimmy

 

Good point. That's why I was asking about the tires. MPSC dont go off that bad really ever, had to be something going on in the suspension area, be it sway bar, or something. I thought that 150 mph sounded a bit odd as well.

Can you lower any part of the stock GT3 without springs?