Here is why a flat tax makes sense. Only 136 million file a tax return. Of those 136 million 52% pay 97% of the taxes. That means that roughly 80 million people pay all virtually all of the income taxes. This is where it becomes insane- when you look at the trillions of dollars being spent, (now estimated to be ten trillion dollars) and you divide that by that 80 million who pay taxes, there is no way for it to EVER get paid, even if you assume 20% is paid by other sources. Consequently, if I do the math, that's roughly $100,000 per tax return for those who actually pay the taxes. We have reached a slippery slope where the tax burden is shifting on the backs of those who do the work. Here is an interesting link to the tax foundation for more depressing reading. http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/1410.html

 

can you see the steam coming out of my ears?
thanks for posting the link

 

my math says 125k per tax payer and I'd gladly trade my tax burden for that amount.

Good Bad or Ugly the rich pay the taxes. PJ I say I live with it because I myself have way too much and the taxes I pay are just a way of life. My parents taught me to not worry about it years ago. I bet if you go one step further you'd find that 50% of the taxes are really paid by the top 5%

It costs a crap load of money to live these days. A family of 4 that brings in only 60k or so really can't afford to pay taxes. That's a $30 an hour 160 hour work month. Break that down and how can they afford taxes. The reality is most Americans are scrapping by.

If a flat tax without steps were set in place that family (@15%) would pay $9k in taxes having $51k left to live. If another family made 1 million they would pay $150k having $850k left to live. The reality is the 1 million would pay a little more than double the 150k in todays 35% bracket and again their lifestyle doesn't change.

Who's lifestyle changes in this scenerio? Not the top end. That's the reason PJ I don't mind paying taxes.

The Steve Forbes of the world believe if a flat tax were in place that the rich would simply spend more. Bigger houses, More cars, Private jets, Vacation homes all spurring the economy by creating jobs for people in these different industries. Same with big business. They feel the tax breaks on large corporations makes them create more jobs, fund future ideas etc etc etc. In the end most of these corporations **** this money off to top end managers in the form of massive payouts.

The reality is not true. The flat tax would just *more rapidly* create a huge gap between the upper class and lower class and make the middle class disappear. Yes the rich will spend more but they will also invest more and in the end buy up the entire world. All housing, Apartments, Condo's and Industrial properties would slowly be sold off to the upper class creating a world not unlike the Noble times of extreme wealth and poverty. If the top 5% owned everything and everyone rented from them for business or residential we would need the Sheriff of Notingham and Robinhood back.

Yes we have a form of Robinhooding right now some people call them Democrats but in the end if someone doesn't help out the "oh so close" to poverty lower class the US might as well be a third world country with millions in Poverty and Kings and Dictators living off their back.

I won't pretend not to be pissed off that we have 5% of americans that are too f'n lazy to get off the ars and work. Get off of the ars to be a viable society member. Believe me they **** ME OFF. I won't give a handout to anyone on the street because I know 95% of them are just f'n lazy.

But let's not think this lazy ars 5% of our now 8.1% unemployed are the norm. Truly the bottom 25% of workers in our country are busting their butts to keep a roof over their families heads and food on the table. I sit at home and worry about these families all of the time. I've been told by many that I overpay my employees but in the end my employees are the only reason I make a nickle. I don't want any of my people to be in financial trouble.

In the end it could be finally that a Lambo guy and a Ferrari/Porsche guy might finally agree on something except the flat tax rate.

 

Most of the top wage earners are such because they are serving more in the greater good. It's rare that wealth is accumulated from serving one person. Wealth typically comes from business owners to do things that serve a lot of people. When you tax them to death, you are killing off the tools those individuals use who are taking the most risks to serve the most people. There is no evidence that low taxes on the upper end kills off the middle class. In fact it's just the opposite. If you have no problem paying taxes, that's great, the treasury allows you to write as big a check over what you owe as you want. The fastest way for the poor to move into middle class and the middle class to move into upper class is through lower taxes. This is why China is suddenly kicking our asses all over the place. They also by the way, own most of our debt (that makes me extremely uneasy as political favors will go a long way to keep them in our bond market as a result) Every country that has low taxes, common sense regulations, prospers. When I'm taxed to death, it's less money I can put into higher risk ventures. It's these garage inventors who start with almost nothing and need investment to come from those who have it. When the government takes it, the wealthy have less to invest. It's basic economics.

Think of it another way, when you're paying 50% of your income in taxes, that means that 50% of your productivity is gone, 50% of your time (however valued) is spent working for the government. At what point is it slavery? When we're at 70-80-90%? To me everything that's going on is an absolute crime. I don't put political party ahead of freedom or my love of this country by so many do that they have completely lost sight of what this country is all about. This was the greatest country in the world and yet we elect idiots, people who we'd never hire in the private sector simply because of political party. I'm ashamed of our elected leaders. They embarass me and this country and don't give a rats-*** about this country as long as they have personal power.

 

Tommy don't get me wrong. I'd gladly pay less taxes I just contend the difference between Republican and Democratic politics comes down to 4% difference. You couldn't get a flat tax through a 100% republican house either. They are as you say all about personal power.

I've finally agreed with you. Yahoo.

Yes venture capitalists keep the ball rolling and spend but in the end it comes down to 5% of the population owning 95% of the wealth.

To get rid of the china ownership we just need to print money like china did a few years ago. not caring about the value of their dollar to the rest of the world. we are printing money technically now. I think we are doing it the wrong way.

I think the only real way out of our mess is to give every tax paying american a debt credit. Pick a number I don't care. $35k to each tax payer. They can use that money for only one thing. Debt. Credit Card, Housing, Car loan who cares. They must use it to pay off debt. If you have no debt then you get 35k free to use on new debt.

This would do a couple of things. First and foremost possibly bail some hardships out of a housing crisis. Pay down a mortgage to possibly get their mortgage amount closer to the actual value of the house. Maybe some will pay down some high interest rate credit cards. I don't know.

These funds would then be available in the banks that get paid back. Banks would free up this cash and get our ball rolling again. Through car loans, small business loans and possibly new mortgages.

The housing costs still need to drop down to a real value. Some of these home values ( Your beloved OC included ) have elevated the cost of a home to a far cry above actual value. So this adjustment needs to still happen.

Banks hopefully will regulate themselves and possibly do a little more work prior to loaning this new found cash.

So now we've created an American debt relief program by allowing americans to pay down their own debt.

Possibly this would create a little inflation. Yes. I'm aware but in the end Americans will get out of a little debt and possibly free up some cash to buy milk and gas

The major problem is the value of our dollar to the rest of the world. Who cares in this instance. China didn't. So now China's huge pile of notes and gov't bonds have now dropped in value. We can just tell them they made a bad investment.

If Tommy is correct and 136 million people pay taxes this would create 4.76 trillion of cash into our system and in the end help out EVERY American tax payer.

I'm not an economist so I know there's flaws but maybe it would make everyone feel included.

 

Mark, I completely agree with your view on taxes. I also think we need a couple more brackets up to, the way I see it "upper" middle class (100K-200K) will disappear with the current system.

 

There really is a simple solution to the economic mess. If you simply cancelled all income taxes for a year, the problem would be solved. Those who produce the most would find the best use for their money and believe me this country would take off like a rocket. None of what's going on in Washington has ever been about doing what's right, it's always been about what gives them the most power. Our country founders knew this about government and were a brilliant bunch of guys. They wrote the constitution to LIMIT the powers of government, not expand. They knew that left unchecked, government would overrun our rights in America and they have. I'm mad as hell at both political parties and I'm no longer supporting either one because what the two parties have done is elevate complete dunces to the highest offices in the land. When I looked at the presidential race and I voted it was picking which sh*t I'd prefer to eat. It was still sh*t. I'm steaming-mad about what's going on and I hope someday we get someone with a brain slightly north of a common garden slug to run for office.

 

ok +1 but can I get my last 3 years income taxes back as well.

Maybe the congressman and senators will do the right thing and all work for $1 this year. that would be a start.

 

I don't think the tax system will ever be fair, no matter what changes are made to it. Sometimes I like a flat tax, sometimes I like the bracketed tax. Often I prefer just a sales tax. In the end, we're still paying way less tax than most other modern countries I wouldn't mind living in. I can't let myself get too overworked about it, because then I start complaining that 51% of my property taxes go to the school districts, but I don't have any kids, nor do I intend to have any. So I'm paying thousands of dollars a year to teach somebody else's spoiled brat. Is that fair?

I try not to obsess about taxes in general, and I rest assured that there's enough people in the U.S. that will argue my general beliefs and preferences for me. I don't think adding one more voice will make a difference (that's sounds horrible, doesn't it?).

 

Thanks goodness I only make 10k a year..

 

The tax increase is only on the income above 250k, so if you make 249999 you are not going to be taxed 36% on the full amount, and if you make 250,000 you will not be taxed 39% on the full amount, it is a bracketed tax system. I really don't see the true difference 4% will make for people making over $250k/year. Say you make $1,000,000, at the new 39% bracket you would be taxed $292,500 on the $750k income over the $250k bracket. With the old 36% bracket you would be taxed $270,000. Now, when you are making $1M a year, will you really miss the additional $22,500 a year in taxes? It should not have any effect on your life what so ever.

I guess you could say I think this whole tax increase is being over-dramatized and made to seem like its going to be such a dramatic life altering thing. In reality, if we ever want to pay off the national debt, there HAVE to be tax increases as well as national spending decreases.

 

Looking at a small tax increase as no big deal is the same way you cook a frog. When you cook a frog, you don't toss it in hot water because it will jump out. Instead you put it in cold water and turn up the heat very slowly and soon it's too late to jump out. Our sales tax is about to go to 9.6%!!!! When you add up all the little increases to pay for a government that NERVER EVER cuts it's own spending, I get very pissed off about it. Becoming apathetic and not voicing concern is what allows a tyrannical government into power in the first place. We wonder how dictators ever get into power in other countries and it starts with getting the population to do two things, one is become apathetic, the second is to get everyone to believe that the changes government is making is just going to effect others and not you. Once they have you believing both, game over. They just cooked another frog and by the time it matters to you, it will be too late.

 

funny thing is we were in the 39% tax bracket years ago and just 6 or 7 years ago got the 4% decrease.

My life didn't change. Vasiliy is correct. So I took home a few more bucks back then.

We can discuss this all day long and in the end there is no way to change the tax structure. In the 70's or early 80's there was a 80% plus tax bracket. Of course than you could write everything off so it washed. the IrS got rid of most of the write offs and dumped the upper tax tear to make it easier on everyone.

not being able to write off all of your donations when you make a higher wage also chaps my hide. over a million you get what my accountant calls a 3% haircut before anything counts. So for every million you make you can't write off the first 30k donated or if you have a mortgage the interest paid isn't a write off either. The inspiration to give large sums of money to charities is offset typically with the thought that if you give 100k you will pay 39k less taxes so it really works out to be a 61k out of pocket and the charity gets all 100k. Instead the government has figured that they should take away 30% of that benefit. Charities shouldn't be part of this equation but they are.

We do pay a lot less then most countries in taxes. I'll never agree where they go but my little voice isn't heard anywhere.

death tax is the worst tax imho. small family owned companies shut down if the owner passes. death tax is the ultimate tax on tax. 51% of everything over 3 1/2 million per person is just not right. Why does the government justify this?

what was this thread about?

 

Cooking frogs..