A Stage 4GT Lunch Cruise- Still Puzzled
#31
02-10-2004, 04:41 PM
Ryan and David,
If you guys were on a DynoJet AWD Dyno you can NOT dyno the AWD car on that. The system is not coupled and is driven with clutches rather than mechanically linked like the Mustang. Unhook the front shaft before dynoing again. The system runs some very odd loads to the front wheels. Aside from the traditional issue of popping a dif.
If you guys were on a DynoJet AWD Dyno you can NOT dyno the AWD car on that. The system is not coupled and is driven with clutches rather than mechanically linked like the Mustang. Unhook the front shaft before dynoing again. The system runs some very odd loads to the front wheels. Aside from the traditional issue of popping a dif.
#32
02-10-2004, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by ColorChange
Do you have hard data on the Upsolute (have you evaluated their programming yourself) that they are "pushing the envelope"? I would like to see it, or tell me, what are they pushing? AFR's, turbo temps (intake charge), what?
.
Do you have hard data on the Upsolute (have you evaluated their programming yourself) that they are "pushing the envelope"? I would like to see it, or tell me, what are they pushing? AFR's, turbo temps (intake charge), what?
.
At WOT...you can see the AFRs are nice and rich between 11.8-12.3.
#33
02-10-2004, 05:58 PM
I also have the Upsolute and Fabspeed Quite and when I dynoed my car at Orbit Racing it had 460rwhp.
Roger also mentioned that it peaked at 490rwhp but for some reason said I should go by the 460 number?
One thing I can say is that the "cold" weather here in SFLA really improves the car. On the drive back from Orlando the car seemed to have more power than normal.
I regret not racing with some of the Stage IV's from the trip.
Maybe next time....
Roger also mentioned that it peaked at 490rwhp but for some reason said I should go by the 460 number?
One thing I can say is that the "cold" weather here in SFLA really improves the car. On the drive back from Orlando the car seemed to have more power than normal.
I regret not racing with some of the Stage IV's from the trip.
Maybe next time....
#34
02-10-2004, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by 996TTR
Lou,
I do not want to even mention how much money is in my car. I wish we had cliffs here like they do in California. That way I could just drive my car off the edge of a cliff if the Upsolute car kept up with me.
Well at least Shanks and my car look good going down the highway.
Lou,
I do not want to even mention how much money is in my car. I wish we had cliffs here like they do in California. That way I could just drive my car off the edge of a cliff if the Upsolute car kept up with me.
Well at least Shanks and my car look good going down the highway.
#35
02-10-2004, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by dan996tt
Is the assumption, that all drivers possess equal driving skill, correct? Is it possible that Upsolute Stephen possesses the greatest driving skill?
Is the assumption, that all drivers possess equal driving skill, correct? Is it possible that Upsolute Stephen possesses the greatest driving skill?
I've learned to bang gears with efficiency and accuracy due to years of driving big-turbo'd imports (ex. 700hp Single Turbo Supra, 460hp Turbo Miata, etc), but then again, so has Shank.
We'll see what the dyno session yields. I think too often, people focus too much on peak horsepower and not enough on the area under the torque (hp) curve.
As for speculations on quality of Upsolute programming vs. giac, I'd suggest that we stop speculating altogether. It seems like everytime someone has a positive experience with Upsolute, other people would bring into question the quality of the programming. What is this doubt based on... merely the price?
I believe that GIAC has proven their ability to tune cars, but I also think Upsolute has done so as well. I think it is ridiculous that people make excuses as to why Upsolute is as fast as it is... weather, air temp, etc. It's one thing to introduce possibilities as to different conditions, but to suggest Upsolute is making it's power due to circumstances while giac is the "real deal" is unfounded.
Stephen
'01 Turbo Ti Upsolute
#36
02-10-2004, 06:47 PM
I like to see that level of support from the GIAC guys. I will allow them the full time they need to evaluate as their reputations and credibility are high.
I still want an explanation, as StephanTi is alluding to, as to what exactly is "wrong" witth the Upsolute approach.
I still want an explanation, as StephanTi is alluding to, as to what exactly is "wrong" witth the Upsolute approach.
#37
02-10-2004, 07:10 PM
ShankGT2.... just a thought, I think you should dyno your car with exactly the same configuration its in right now. That is, given that you know right now what its doing on the street performance-wise - you shoudn't now change something before dynoing.... you should at least dyno once in its current configuration, and then change out the header. It just has the potential to introduce another level of speculation...
just my $.02...
-d
just my $.02...
-d
#38
02-10-2004, 07:26 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Southern California
Posts: 801
Rep Power: 53 
I agree with delobbo. Shank, if you change your car, you may end up being one step farther from the answer, rather than closer.
I have been following the thread closely and until now, people have stated if you want just a 100hp or so and no more go upsolute, BUT if you want more than that GIAC is the way to go. They also have a stock setting which is nice. My questions are: 1)how does upsolute do what they are doing? are upsolute cars running 1.2 bar more/less. Is the boost a big factor? and how do the GIAC vs Upsolute compare in regular street driving? These are genuine questions and not meant to ruffle any feathers. I am pretty practical and want to know basically which is the better of the 2 to go with for good street cruising, canyon runs and engaging the detroit muscle with something to prove. Can any give me insight into this who'se had experience with either system. Sharkster, I really appreciate your comments previously because I can see how in a more formal race environment the GIAC works really well for you and I've noted your experiences with the vette's. Anyone else with thoughts on this one?
I have been following the thread closely and until now, people have stated if you want just a 100hp or so and no more go upsolute, BUT if you want more than that GIAC is the way to go. They also have a stock setting which is nice. My questions are: 1)how does upsolute do what they are doing? are upsolute cars running 1.2 bar more/less. Is the boost a big factor? and how do the GIAC vs Upsolute compare in regular street driving? These are genuine questions and not meant to ruffle any feathers. I am pretty practical and want to know basically which is the better of the 2 to go with for good street cruising, canyon runs and engaging the detroit muscle with something to prove. Can any give me insight into this who'se had experience with either system. Sharkster, I really appreciate your comments previously because I can see how in a more formal race environment the GIAC works really well for you and I've noted your experiences with the vette's. Anyone else with thoughts on this one?
#40
02-11-2004, 11:07 AM
996TTR,
I'm guessing you are referring to removing the driveshaft for the dyno run.
For our cars, disconnecting the driveshaft for the road really wouldn't benefit the car much in terms of accelearation. The AWD weight is still there, and the parasitic loss is minimal with the driveshaft attached anyways due to the nature of the AWD's rear-biased torque split.
Stephen
I'm guessing you are referring to removing the driveshaft for the dyno run.
For our cars, disconnecting the driveshaft for the road really wouldn't benefit the car much in terms of accelearation. The AWD weight is still there, and the parasitic loss is minimal with the driveshaft attached anyways due to the nature of the AWD's rear-biased torque split.
Stephen
#41
02-11-2004, 11:08 AM
996TTR,
I'm guessing you are referring to removing the driveshaft for the dyno run.
For our cars, disconnecting the driveshaft for the road really wouldn't benefit the car much in terms of accelearation. The AWD weight is still there, and the parasitic loss is minimal with the driveshaft attached anyways due to the nature of the AWD's rear-biased torque split.
The Europipe should give you some good horsepower returns though compared to stock.
Stephen
I'm guessing you are referring to removing the driveshaft for the dyno run.
For our cars, disconnecting the driveshaft for the road really wouldn't benefit the car much in terms of accelearation. The AWD weight is still there, and the parasitic loss is minimal with the driveshaft attached anyways due to the nature of the AWD's rear-biased torque split.
The Europipe should give you some good horsepower returns though compared to stock.
Stephen
#42
02-11-2004, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by sharkster
Guys I'm not sure what the problem is but I've had both just the upsolute and then Stephen's GIAC stuff and there's just a huge difference for me?
For example my mph used to 121-123 with upsolute and now I'm trapping 127.8. In the 1/8th I was at 94mph and now I'm at 101mph- that's a HUGE difference. Strange... maybe I would disconnect the battery and then try.
Guys I'm not sure what the problem is but I've had both just the upsolute and then Stephen's GIAC stuff and there's just a huge difference for me?
For example my mph used to 121-123 with upsolute and now I'm trapping 127.8. In the 1/8th I was at 94mph and now I'm at 101mph- that's a HUGE difference. Strange... maybe I would disconnect the battery and then try.
Your car trapped ~128 with just chip/exhaust/filter/dv?! That is an amazing stat that I doubt has been repeated!
Stephen
#43
02-11-2004, 11:19 AM
First off, Stephen, just want to qualify that I've the utmost respect for your shop. Anything that is said is simply to get to the truth. No flames nor finger-pointing intended.
Now... I don't know how accurate or fast-reacting the stock boost gauge is, but I see rock-steady boost levels of 1.0BAR 99% of the time, with occasional 1.1. Judging from what I've read, GIAC is similar as well.
Now, the Upsolute at 1.0BAR and GIAC at 1.0BAR will be spinning the turbos similarily. The internal wastegate that regulates the boost is the same, the compressor/turbine wheels are the same, housing the same, compressor maps the same, etc... at a given boost, they are doing the same thing. So, if one is over-spinning the turbos, chances are, the other one is as well.
As previously mentioned, the day I got the install, I drove straight from the shop (Iowa/Illinois border) to Gingerman (Michigan) and put in 6 hot laps before the track was shut down for Car and Driver (sun was going down, and they had to finish their shoot).
I've made repeated runs just as anyone else would have, and I've experience no stumbling, spikes, etc. There is nothing that would suggest that the Upsolute's tuning is on the ragged edge. They tune about 10~12 Porsche per week, in fact.
Hopefully, the dyno sessions will clearify a few things.
Stephen
Now... I don't know how accurate or fast-reacting the stock boost gauge is, but I see rock-steady boost levels of 1.0BAR 99% of the time, with occasional 1.1. Judging from what I've read, GIAC is similar as well.
Now, the Upsolute at 1.0BAR and GIAC at 1.0BAR will be spinning the turbos similarily. The internal wastegate that regulates the boost is the same, the compressor/turbine wheels are the same, housing the same, compressor maps the same, etc... at a given boost, they are doing the same thing. So, if one is over-spinning the turbos, chances are, the other one is as well.
As previously mentioned, the day I got the install, I drove straight from the shop (Iowa/Illinois border) to Gingerman (Michigan) and put in 6 hot laps before the track was shut down for Car and Driver (sun was going down, and they had to finish their shoot).
I've made repeated runs just as anyone else would have, and I've experience no stumbling, spikes, etc. There is nothing that would suggest that the Upsolute's tuning is on the ragged edge. They tune about 10~12 Porsche per week, in fact.
Hopefully, the dyno sessions will clearify a few things.
Stephen
Originally posted by PorschePhD
Couple of things here. Some might not make any difference until some time is passed and the dust has settled. David has the sheets and can post his jpgs if he wants. His car made on open exhaust with cats in place 565RWHP. The exhaust is changed and restricting, but still should be within target to blow a lower level car away. The weather is playing a huge roll and the programming of the Upsolute chip. The turbos are cranked on the K16s and can and will make big spikes of power in the cold weather. The normal ambient temperature will allow things to become soaked very fast when the turbo is over spinning. In most cases a turbo being over spun will not relate to more HP, rather it will reduce it because of the amount of friction and heat being created. The turbo over spinning in 20 degree weather is not overheating like it would when it is say 70. The other key factor is the program is running leaner with the colder air and grouped with an over spinning turbo will simply make some very serious TQ. The difference becomes, can this level be sustained for very long. Not really. The car is getting every shot it can to maximize the 500.00 chip. I do believe that the car should still get beat, but if the programming is set to the ragged edge on one and is set nominal for all conditions with a huge safety margin then the out come will be the one that can run more efficient because of elements would yield a like result. This is the only Logic reason and the differences to other that have run similar cars, such as Duane. I have spent so much time on the dyno with so many TTs and these cars made big power. Fred's also proved that to the public on the Mustang Dyno at the shootout. While all of this can be proven until the temps warm up, it is about efficiency and heat. I feel like I am in the twilight zone.
Couple of things here. Some might not make any difference until some time is passed and the dust has settled. David has the sheets and can post his jpgs if he wants. His car made on open exhaust with cats in place 565RWHP. The exhaust is changed and restricting, but still should be within target to blow a lower level car away. The weather is playing a huge roll and the programming of the Upsolute chip. The turbos are cranked on the K16s and can and will make big spikes of power in the cold weather. The normal ambient temperature will allow things to become soaked very fast when the turbo is over spinning. In most cases a turbo being over spun will not relate to more HP, rather it will reduce it because of the amount of friction and heat being created. The turbo over spinning in 20 degree weather is not overheating like it would when it is say 70. The other key factor is the program is running leaner with the colder air and grouped with an over spinning turbo will simply make some very serious TQ. The difference becomes, can this level be sustained for very long. Not really. The car is getting every shot it can to maximize the 500.00 chip. I do believe that the car should still get beat, but if the programming is set to the ragged edge on one and is set nominal for all conditions with a huge safety margin then the out come will be the one that can run more efficient because of elements would yield a like result. This is the only Logic reason and the differences to other that have run similar cars, such as Duane. I have spent so much time on the dyno with so many TTs and these cars made big power. Fred's also proved that to the public on the Mustang Dyno at the shootout. While all of this can be proven until the temps warm up, it is about efficiency and heat. I feel like I am in the twilight zone.
#44
02-11-2004, 02:15 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: daytona beach, florida
Posts: 512
Rep Power: 41
This topic is very timely for me. Stephen told me $5700 for an upgrade and Kevin is close. $500 to Upsolute! Are we talking oranges to oranges or oranges to parsnips? I've already done FVD and am not satisfied with the results and marginally 1 bar. I have a history with Motronic upgrades, Porsche and AMG, and programable electronic fuel injection, so I'm sure there are similarities with the respective programs. Ignition advance and boost are probably the biggest issues. Shank, what would you do if you had to do it all over again?
#45
02-11-2004, 04:14 PM
Stephen,
None taken. This has always been a touchy subject that often I have tried to stay out of. It makes it hard not to say something that will offend one party or another when asked certain questions. Unfortunately it puts me in a place I don't like to be as no matter what I say someone will be upset. Remember my business is a hobby that got out of control.
If my analysis of your software was incorrect I apologize. My information was base on an experience I had about 4 months ago. I often reserve my right not to say anything as it simply is not my place. The only experience I have is with a car in Illinois about 2 hours from you guys.
None taken. This has always been a touchy subject that often I have tried to stay out of. It makes it hard not to say something that will offend one party or another when asked certain questions. Unfortunately it puts me in a place I don't like to be as no matter what I say someone will be upset. Remember my business is a hobby that got out of control.
If my analysis of your software was incorrect I apologize. My information was base on an experience I had about 4 months ago. I often reserve my right not to say anything as it simply is not my place. The only experience I have is with a car in Illinois about 2 hours from you guys.