First 991 Drive (Manifold)
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I'm good.
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^^^ THAT'S ME!!! But with a caveat. There are two 997.2 TT-S models, a GT3 RS and a GTS-4 at my dealership PERFECTLY configured and I was given permission when I laid down a deposit to back out of my 991 order and slide to money over towards one of those babies should I not like it at the unveiling/test drive.
I'm good.
I'm good.
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They essentially said my deposit is good on anything in the building...I found it to be quite fair.
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I'm trying to define my car needs in my head. Why do I own 911's and what do I use them for. This 991 will primarily be my DD. I work from a home office primarily, so my driving needs are made up of personal errands and getting to a golf course, picking up the daughter, going to the gym, taking the wife out, etc. I likely won't track the car. Highway driving will be almost daily but avg 5-7 miles per day.
I guess the 991 fits me perfectly - I definitely posted comments 2 years ago about how I disliked the ride of my C4s. You gotta understand Denver roads are terrible. Even in the summer we are dealing with filled potholes from the winter plows. Even new asphalt has cracks in it from thermal expansion. Manhole covers are not brought up to to the level of the new paving job so they are typically recessed 2-4 inches, etc...
So in everyday stoplight to stoplight driving with the occasional enjoyment of an on-ramp and blasting down a 45-50mph road, that's all I can do. If I drive to the airport I can blow down a 75mph toll road randomly popping up to 90 and back down to 75.
A large part of my need is comfort and general legal limits enjoyment. I HAVE LOST MY LICENSE TWICE IN 43 YEARS BY SPEEDING!!! I JUST GOT IT BACK IN NOVEMBER.. Those defining the car as less of a 911 and a move towards luxury are actually telling me what I want to hear. NOW I HAVE DRIVEN the 991 and I feel the reports of the death of the 911 are greatly exaggerated. It still vibrated when sitting in neutral or park on a cold start. You CAN feel the engine, TRULY. The quarters are still MUCH MUCH smaller that an E92 (latest rev) BMW M3. You are encapsulated in this car. The engine winds up and down much faster that the 997.2 which leads to the feeling of sportiness BIG TIME. Think F! car rev'ing in the pits. Steering is quick AND REQUIRES INTENTION AND EFFORT TO MANIPULATE - doesn't rival a lincoln town car where you can flip a u-turn with your index finger - NOT AT ALL. All these aspects keep the feel of a 911 alive. And I'm a creature of comfort - so I welcome improvements in interior material quality and design.
There are surely those of you who need near GT3 level performance and track your car every other week, etc. But I don't. Not to say the 991 can't compete in this realm, I just don't need it. So maybe my judgement as "plenty of sports car and 911 heritage" is not a complete assessment.
(disclaimer - tracked dozens of hours in the past, grew up with a 308 and a Shelby in the garage from youth, raced drags all thru high school and college, family involved in SCCA from the dawn of time, total technical car guy by definition)
I guess the 991 fits me perfectly - I definitely posted comments 2 years ago about how I disliked the ride of my C4s. You gotta understand Denver roads are terrible. Even in the summer we are dealing with filled potholes from the winter plows. Even new asphalt has cracks in it from thermal expansion. Manhole covers are not brought up to to the level of the new paving job so they are typically recessed 2-4 inches, etc...
So in everyday stoplight to stoplight driving with the occasional enjoyment of an on-ramp and blasting down a 45-50mph road, that's all I can do. If I drive to the airport I can blow down a 75mph toll road randomly popping up to 90 and back down to 75.
A large part of my need is comfort and general legal limits enjoyment. I HAVE LOST MY LICENSE TWICE IN 43 YEARS BY SPEEDING!!! I JUST GOT IT BACK IN NOVEMBER.. Those defining the car as less of a 911 and a move towards luxury are actually telling me what I want to hear. NOW I HAVE DRIVEN the 991 and I feel the reports of the death of the 911 are greatly exaggerated. It still vibrated when sitting in neutral or park on a cold start. You CAN feel the engine, TRULY. The quarters are still MUCH MUCH smaller that an E92 (latest rev) BMW M3. You are encapsulated in this car. The engine winds up and down much faster that the 997.2 which leads to the feeling of sportiness BIG TIME. Think F! car rev'ing in the pits. Steering is quick AND REQUIRES INTENTION AND EFFORT TO MANIPULATE - doesn't rival a lincoln town car where you can flip a u-turn with your index finger - NOT AT ALL. All these aspects keep the feel of a 911 alive. And I'm a creature of comfort - so I welcome improvements in interior material quality and design.
There are surely those of you who need near GT3 level performance and track your car every other week, etc. But I don't. Not to say the 991 can't compete in this realm, I just don't need it. So maybe my judgement as "plenty of sports car and 911 heritage" is not a complete assessment.
(disclaimer - tracked dozens of hours in the past, grew up with a 308 and a Shelby in the garage from youth, raced drags all thru high school and college, family involved in SCCA from the dawn of time, total technical car guy by definition)
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OK, I drove the 991 again today, not long after driving my 997 on the same roads.
The good news is that I liked it a little better than the first drive, but the bad news is that I'm starting to get convinced that it's not really a 911 anymore (bracing for screams of outrage ...).
Positives:
- Corners like it's on rails. I can see why the lap times have gotten faster. Feels more balanced and stable than before, more like the Cayman (as the weight distribution and wider front track would suggest), so pretty easy to drive fast with confidence.
- Though I still prefer manual, the PDK is really nice for an automated transmission. The blipping is very cool.
- Comfortable, due to the longer wheelbase, cushy seats, and less road noise.
Neutrals:
- Interior still strikes me as more luxury oriented. A positive if that's what you want, but a negative if you like the more traditional 997 layout.
- Looks comparable to the 997. Can't really say I like it more or less.
- I'm not sure about the sound - sometimes it sounds like it's farting. I sort of like the 997 sound more, but the 991 sound could grow on me (the wife found it too loud even with PSE off).
- Feels heavier than the 997. But I'm not calling this a negative because the 991 is actually lighter.
Negatives:
- I don't find the dynamics of the car nearly as engaging as the 997. It gets the job done on performance, but it doesn't 'dance'. This is the main reason I say it may not be a 911 anymore. To me, feels more like a very sporty version of a Panamera (which I've driven quite a bit). Not a bad thing at all for a lot of people, but 911 purists are likely to shed some tears.
- Sometimes when cornering, felt like it had a funny swaying motion (it doesn't have PDCC)? It didn't seem to compromise the grip, but was a bit unnerving.
- I still think some of the steering feel has been taken away. They've done a good job of getting close, but I can tell the difference, and I don't think I'm just imagining it.
- It does seem to lack low-end torque. It wasn't as noticeable when PDK got the gear right, but PDK didn't always do that. (BTW, I had to turn off sport plus because the shift points were way too aggressive for a car that isn't even broken in yet.) This could be an issue with MT.
I remain hopeful that I'll like the 991 GT3 or a 991.2 more, and driving a 991S with MT may also make a difference. But for now, I'm convinced that the 997 suits me better.
The good news is that I liked it a little better than the first drive, but the bad news is that I'm starting to get convinced that it's not really a 911 anymore (bracing for screams of outrage ...).
Positives:
- Corners like it's on rails. I can see why the lap times have gotten faster. Feels more balanced and stable than before, more like the Cayman (as the weight distribution and wider front track would suggest), so pretty easy to drive fast with confidence.
- Though I still prefer manual, the PDK is really nice for an automated transmission. The blipping is very cool.
- Comfortable, due to the longer wheelbase, cushy seats, and less road noise.
Neutrals:
- Interior still strikes me as more luxury oriented. A positive if that's what you want, but a negative if you like the more traditional 997 layout.
- Looks comparable to the 997. Can't really say I like it more or less.
- I'm not sure about the sound - sometimes it sounds like it's farting. I sort of like the 997 sound more, but the 991 sound could grow on me (the wife found it too loud even with PSE off).
- Feels heavier than the 997. But I'm not calling this a negative because the 991 is actually lighter.
Negatives:
- I don't find the dynamics of the car nearly as engaging as the 997. It gets the job done on performance, but it doesn't 'dance'. This is the main reason I say it may not be a 911 anymore. To me, feels more like a very sporty version of a Panamera (which I've driven quite a bit). Not a bad thing at all for a lot of people, but 911 purists are likely to shed some tears.
- Sometimes when cornering, felt like it had a funny swaying motion (it doesn't have PDCC)? It didn't seem to compromise the grip, but was a bit unnerving.
- I still think some of the steering feel has been taken away. They've done a good job of getting close, but I can tell the difference, and I don't think I'm just imagining it.
- It does seem to lack low-end torque. It wasn't as noticeable when PDK got the gear right, but PDK didn't always do that. (BTW, I had to turn off sport plus because the shift points were way too aggressive for a car that isn't even broken in yet.) This could be an issue with MT.
I remain hopeful that I'll like the 991 GT3 or a 991.2 more, and driving a 991S with MT may also make a difference. But for now, I'm convinced that the 997 suits me better.
Last edited by Manifold; Feb 6, 2012 at 03:04 PM.
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Thanks for the followup, Mani. Good stuff - more in depth and with further consideration. Appreciate your points.
My take on the "Not really a 911, anymore" commentary I've heard from a few sources requires that we have a definable set of criteria that allows us to judge a 911 as so. So I'll consider we as owners of multiple 911's are all onboard with that dataset.
And my beef with this line of thinking is that a 1979 SC is far more different than a 997, than is the leap from 997 to 991. I owned both an SC and 997. Oh my god what a different breed the SC is - HUGE HUGE difference when driving - those intangibles - the driving characteristics that are the things we judge a 911 by.
Maybe we should proclaim that the 991 is a continued smooth line away from that 911 rough riding "hot engine strapped just below the back of your neck" car rather than a sudden plunge off the 911 cliff.
I think we are all familiar with the 3 or so MAJOR changes in the 911 timeline at which point purists threw up their hands proclaiming blasphemy. This is just another blip on that line and surely the 991 will be lumped in with the 993, 996, 997 when the next major overhaul happens in 7-8 years. "This 999 is no longer a true 911 like the 991 was and we long for that 911 heritage."
Turbos? Auto-trannies? Water-cooled? and now "electro-assist steering"???? Wait until they move the motor :O
991's. Get em while you can!!! It might be the last REAL 911... </editorial>
My take on the "Not really a 911, anymore" commentary I've heard from a few sources requires that we have a definable set of criteria that allows us to judge a 911 as so. So I'll consider we as owners of multiple 911's are all onboard with that dataset.
And my beef with this line of thinking is that a 1979 SC is far more different than a 997, than is the leap from 997 to 991. I owned both an SC and 997. Oh my god what a different breed the SC is - HUGE HUGE difference when driving - those intangibles - the driving characteristics that are the things we judge a 911 by.
Maybe we should proclaim that the 991 is a continued smooth line away from that 911 rough riding "hot engine strapped just below the back of your neck" car rather than a sudden plunge off the 911 cliff.
I think we are all familiar with the 3 or so MAJOR changes in the 911 timeline at which point purists threw up their hands proclaiming blasphemy. This is just another blip on that line and surely the 991 will be lumped in with the 993, 996, 997 when the next major overhaul happens in 7-8 years. "This 999 is no longer a true 911 like the 991 was and we long for that 911 heritage."
Turbos? Auto-trannies? Water-cooled? and now "electro-assist steering"???? Wait until they move the motor :O
991's. Get em while you can!!!
It might be the last REAL 911... </editorial>
Last edited by EricP; Feb 6, 2012 at 05:14 PM.
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Thanks for the followup, Mani. Good stuff - more in depth and with further consideration. Appreciate your points.
My take on the "Not really a 911, anymore" commentary I've heard from a few sources requires that we have a definable set of criteria that allows us to judge a 911 as so. So I'll consider we as owners of multiple 911's are all onboard with that dataset.
And my beef with this line of thinking is that a 1979 SC is far more different than a 997, than is the leap from 997 to 991. I owned both an SC and 997. Oh my god what a different breed the SC is - HUGE HUGE difference when driving - those intangibles - the driving characteristics that are the things we judge a 911 by.
Maybe we should proclaim that the 991 is a continued smooth line away from that 911 rough riding "hot engine strapped just below the back of your neck" car rather than a sudden plunge off the 911 cliff.
I think we are all familiar with the 3 or so MAJOR changes in the 911 timeline at which point purists threw up their hands proclaiming blasphemy. This is just another blip on that line and surely the 991 will be lumped in with the 993, 996, 997 when the next major overhaul happens in 7-8 years. "This 999 is no longer a true 911 like the 991 was and we long for that 911 heritage."
Turbos? Auto-trannies? Water-cooled? and now "electro-assist steering"???? Wait until they move the motor :O
991's. Get em while you can!!! It might be the last REAL 911... </editorial>
My take on the "Not really a 911, anymore" commentary I've heard from a few sources requires that we have a definable set of criteria that allows us to judge a 911 as so. So I'll consider we as owners of multiple 911's are all onboard with that dataset.
And my beef with this line of thinking is that a 1979 SC is far more different than a 997, than is the leap from 997 to 991. I owned both an SC and 997. Oh my god what a different breed the SC is - HUGE HUGE difference when driving - those intangibles - the driving characteristics that are the things we judge a 911 by.
Maybe we should proclaim that the 991 is a continued smooth line away from that 911 rough riding "hot engine strapped just below the back of your neck" car rather than a sudden plunge off the 911 cliff.
I think we are all familiar with the 3 or so MAJOR changes in the 911 timeline at which point purists threw up their hands proclaiming blasphemy. This is just another blip on that line and surely the 991 will be lumped in with the 993, 996, 997 when the next major overhaul happens in 7-8 years. "This 999 is no longer a true 911 like the 991 was and we long for that 911 heritage."
Turbos? Auto-trannies? Water-cooled? and now "electro-assist steering"???? Wait until they move the motor :O
991's. Get em while you can!!!
It might be the last REAL 911... </editorial>From my experience, what I can say is that the 996 and 997 feel very similar, whereas the 991 feels very different. Whether it's no longer a 911 because of that is ultimately a subjective judgment. To me, the change is too much, but clearly plenty of other people disagree.
I've actually been toying lately with getting an older generation of 911 to play around with, maybe even older than the 993, but the wife would probably think I've really gone off the deep end (and she might be right
).
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Silver with a red leather .
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^^^ THAT'S ME!!! But with a caveat. There are two 997.2 TT-S models, a GT3 RS and a GTS-4 at my dealership PERFECTLY configured and I was given permission when I laid down a deposit to back out of my 991 order and slide to money over towards one of those babies should I not like it at the unveiling/test drive.
I'm good.
I'm good.
Eric-
Get the TT-S instead and I can get your 991 a month or two earlier than my build will be ready! Aside from color, I think they have similar builds.
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For the record, I just wanted to clarify that I am not a naysayer of the 991. I actually like the 991, especially the exterior and exhaust. The only thing that I am not exactly fond of is the low end torque, the steering, and backseats.
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Can't say I agree with much of that. With a few exceptions, the press and test drive reviews have been very positive.
I could be wrong, but the naysayers seem to mostly be recent buyers of 997s who(let's face it) have the most to lose if the 991 makes a quantum leap from the 997.
I could be wrong, but the naysayers seem to mostly be recent buyers of 997s who(let's face it) have the most to lose if the 991 makes a quantum leap from the 997.
Guy's the reviewers can't all be wrong. Our 997's were great cars on the day (and still are) but Porsche has moved forward and will continue to do so with or without 997 diehards. Don't kid yourselves. Not all enthusiasts will be driving vintage cars in the future. That is stereotyping
.And of course 991.2 is not far off.....and then we can listen to the commentary about how the 991.2 was the car the .1 should have been. And just because the 991.2 will be better (which stands to reason) doesn't make the .1 a bad car....same as with the 997.1/.2. The irony is it wasn't that far back that the 996 guys were criticising 997 as being less of a 911....and mainly guys that just bought heavily optioned 996's at runout prices whereas the guys who had been in them for a while were ready to shift into 997's. Porsche will do well out of this car and, at US prices they are a steal.
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+1.....all backed up by the posts just on this board alone.
Guy's the reviewers can't all be wrong. Our 997's were great cars on the day (and still are) but Porsche has moved forward and will continue to do so with or without 997 diehards. Don't kid yourselves. Not all enthusiasts will be driving vintage cars in the future. That is stereotyping.
And of course 991.2 is not far off.....and then we can listen to the commentary about how the 991.2 was the car the .1 should have been. And just because the 991.2 will be better (which stands to reason) doesn't make the .1 a bad car....same as with the 997.1/.2. The irony is it wasn't that far back that the 996 guys were criticising 997 as being less of a 911....and mainly guys that just bought heavily optioned 996's at runout prices whereas the guys who had been in them for a while were ready to shift into 997's. Porsche will do well out of this car and, at US prices they are a steal.
Guy's the reviewers can't all be wrong. Our 997's were great cars on the day (and still are) but Porsche has moved forward and will continue to do so with or without 997 diehards. Don't kid yourselves. Not all enthusiasts will be driving vintage cars in the future. That is stereotyping
.And of course 991.2 is not far off.....and then we can listen to the commentary about how the 991.2 was the car the .1 should have been. And just because the 991.2 will be better (which stands to reason) doesn't make the .1 a bad car....same as with the 997.1/.2. The irony is it wasn't that far back that the 996 guys were criticising 997 as being less of a 911....and mainly guys that just bought heavily optioned 996's at runout prices whereas the guys who had been in them for a while were ready to shift into 997's. Porsche will do well out of this car and, at US prices they are a steal.
