I do find it matters which mode you're in. The only one I find a lag in when jumping to 2nd from 1st, no matter what mode. The others feel pretty quick to me. Don't think I could tell 100ms from 200ms. I'm happy with it and have no complaints.

 

Sure doesn't sound like any lag on the track:

 

[QUOTE=SanibelSpeed;3888084]Sure doesn't sound like any lag on the track:

+1 The shifts and throttle response are programmed to be a bit softer (slower) in normal, a bit harder (faster) in Sport and harder (faster) yet in Sport +.

But it makes no difference- the robot shifts faster than a human shifting manually- every time, up or down, no matter if it is controlled by buttons, paddles or the shift lever, or left to its programming.

Some do not enjoy that, but that does not change the fact.

 

[QUOTE=chuckbdc;3888123]I must not be making myself clear.

The shift itself is plenty fast in Sport + mode. The lag I'm referring to happens between the time you hit the button/paddle and when the actual shift occurs. You're arguing something completely different from what I'm talking about - and that video tells you nothing about the issue I'm raising, because you can't tell when the driver hits the paddle (actually, it looks like he's left it in auto, so it's completely irrelevant).

The shift itself might take only 50 msec - very fast - but the shift doesn't happen until 2-300 msec after you've hit the paddle, and THAT is annoying vs. a direct solid mechanical linkage.

Nice video, BTW. I qualified on that track (Road America) for the June Sprints at a 2:17.4 two weeks prior.

 

[QUOTE=FullThrottle64;3888182]Understood, but what sports car in the 991's class is available that has less of this lag? And I'm not referring to purpose-built track cars; I'm referring to stock street cars.

 

Every car with a direct mechanical linkage - a manual. The actual shift time may be slower with the manual, but the driver is 100% in control of the timing of the shift, and that is a necessity for limits-of-handling driving. Yes, I am talking about track-focused driving, but for me, that's what I'm looking for.

As I said above, the vast majority of people would probably never be bothered by it - but it does bother me.

Cupholder location and leather color matching, OTOH, don't mean much to me - and there are plenty of people who get VERY uptight about such things (and that's reasonable at the price point we're discussin). Different strokes.....

 

[QUOTE=FullThrottle64;3888182]I clearly don't understand your point. Perhaps it is because my car has no appreciable lag. A solid shift occurs when I hit the button- far faster it would take to step on a clutch pedal. The deeper the throttle is depressed the faster it happens going up a gear. The harder the brake is applied - and G forces are generated, the faster it happens going down through the gears until the lowest one is engaged that will not over rev the car.

By the way, the "direct solid mechanical linkage" is is the same in PDK and manual transmissions. The linkage at the clutch face is as direct and as mechanically solid as with a manual transmission. No different except a motor moves the mechanical parts faster than is possible with a wet muscle and hydraulics. One clutch engages and the other disengages when the mechanical linkage is activated. Far more efficient with harder parts moving less distance.

 

I understand entirely but even though the manual makes you feel in better control, aren't you still at a disadvantage on the track against an equally skilled driver in a PDK-equipped car that's identical to yours? Or, put differently, if you were to time yourself on a track with two identical C2S cars but one with the M7 and the other with the PDK, in which would you get the fastest time (assuming you practice driving the PDK so as to get used to it and become tolerant of the delay and work with it and not get frustrated)? Be honest.

 

In the end fullthrottle64 prefers a manual, but the PDK will get you from 1st to 2nd to 3rd etc.... quicker than going up and down the gears in a manual.

 

Pdk will destroy the manual, ceteris paribus.
And I do acknowledge the existence of the lag with the paddles. But I honestly don't think the lag is that big that it will kill your laptimes at 10/10 driving. Your brain will adapt after a while for sure.

 

Maybe the solution for diehard manual fans is for Porsche to develop & to offer a PDK with a real shifter that would be in the usual shift pattern of a 6-speed or 7-speed, but without a clutch pedal. Instead of push/pull on the stick, you'd actually row through the gears same as you would with a clutch pedal. Microswitches could tell whether you're downshifting from 5th to 4th or 3rd or upshifting sequentially. The shift lever would be in the proper position for each gear so visually it would look just like a full manual.

 

Hard to say without trying it (and I'll volunteer to drive for that test any day at any track), but I'd suggest that when you're really at the limits of what the car can do, getting the most out of the driver is more important than getting the most out of the engine. Could I learn to deal with the lag? Maybe....but why would I want to do that if I don't have to, and why would I want to have to learn a totally different shift timing for each car vs. having a hard link?

Second, getting the corner entries and exits timed right is more important than the last little bit of acceleration; the acceleration advantage of the PDK on the straight will be completely wiped out if you come out of the corner 3 mph slower because you mis-timed the shift.

I still get the sense that you guys are defending the control lag, which I view as a less-than-correct characteristic of the car. Are you suggesting that you want the car to have a delay between control input and action? How much delay is "correct", and what is the target?

On a drag strip, that means something. On a road course, it's generally irrelevant; the larger advantage of the PDK is the lack of missed shifts.

Umm....no. Not even close. In the PDK, there is no direct mechanical connection between your hand and the gearbox - it's 100% electrical. In a manual, the clutch slave is directly coupled to the pedal with hydraulics, and the shifter is a direct mechanical linkage. BIG difference.

The clutch is basically irrelevant in 10/10ths driving anyway - on the track I never use the clutch except in the pit lane. Once you learn to properly rev-match (actually it's torque-matching, but that's another thread), the clutch is just a time-waster. Heck, many of the new "performance" manuals already blip the throttle for you so you don't even have to worry about that.

 

Nah - I'd rather have a fore/aft like a real sequential box. H-patterns aren't good for much more than nostalgia. I just want the timing to be faster, more like a true direct-connect shifter. If you ever get a chance, drive a track car with a motorcycle engine and air-driven paddle shifters - you'll see the difference immediately. Even with an electrical connection, the shifting action can (and should) be a LOT faster.

 

Why? Because it's proven to be faster and not error-prone.

Missing a manual shift will have you come out more than 3 MPH slower, and risks breaking the gearbox. Not going to happen with a PDK.

I'm not trying to convince you to stop preferring a manual transmission in favor of the PDK. I'm just answering your arguments. I think your best post should be, "I like shifting and using the clutch and don't care if I could go a little fast using a PDK." But you started this whole comparison because you aren't comfortable with the lag in the PDK, which is your right to be. I have no desire to change your mind about your preferences. But don't try to make a case about how this lag is going to slow you down on the track because it's proven to not be the case. If it's the case with you, then all I can say is "A bad workman always blames his tools".

 

Let me ask this again:

Are you suggesting that you want the car to have a delay between control input and action? How much delay is "correct", and what is the target?