Gents,
Again, as Stephen mentioned [and thanks again for your help in definitively clarifying this] ANYTHING over 6750rpm is going to give you a Type 2. Porsche finally added several points that record specific higher revs on the 997s but that does us 996 guys no good. It matters not if you twist it it 9k and it stays together.. or 6751.. that dumb computer will only record a few more Type 2s.

Yes, Porsche can use a Type 2 to disallow a Warranty Claim. [But consider their side. They cannot tell if it went to 6751 or 8951. People who work on these cars understand that a good wrench CAN look inside and -usually - tell if an engine has been abused but I suspect we would agree that the company might be more interested in saving money than being fair with the customer if they see a ready excuse. With the 997s this situation should be much more clearly defined.]

Errr, if you aren't getting some nice, instant wheelspin, perhaps you have 1/a tt with awd and better power distribution... 2/ NOT ENOUGH POWER! [but.....errr. there is no such thing as enough, right?]
JR

 

Great info

 

They do? I was unaware of this.

 

John,

Great info-thanks!
Can you expand on this please ^^^. I heard of some recording that takes place in the steering wheel of the 997s. Do you know of any other?

Thanks

 

Chuck,
You are on the right track, but since it's a 4 stroke engine only 3 cylinders of 6 fire every revolution so you divide by 3 not 6. Then you have to assume an average RPM over the limit to calculate the amount of seconds.

This is why if I got a tune I would ask for the rev limit left alone.

(too many years of mechanical engineering training...)

 

yes they do.

this thread however interesting and far above my knowledge still doesnt differenciate between type 1 (an acceleration breech of the red line that is electronically limited) vs what I thought was a type 2 when the engine is actually "mechanically" over reved like a missed down shift (ie you go into second from 5th instead of forth)

so I know I am thick but IS there a difference? cause up to this thread there was!!

 

Thanks for the great info guys. I am new to the P-car scene and had never heard of type 1 or type 2's. Thanks again

Jack

 

So with all this about type 2 voiding warrenty it begs the question....how do we get rid of it from the record.....Stephen alluded to this but how/can this be done??

 

How do they change the limiter on a spec car? I had assumed that they had to run the factory electronics in the cup car series, and in any other series where you have to retain the stock systems. FWIW the limiter is a fair bit above peak torque in the 996 cup cars so having a driver adjust up or down is not a big deal.

 

Porsche has never come clean about what causes type 2, they've just used them to void the warranty labeling them abuse if they happened close to the engine demise. I think there were a few assumptions made about money shifts causing them because of the "abuse" label and the theory took on a life of it's own on the boards. Until a few months ago when MidnighTT did some tests with his Durametric and found he could generate them at will by spinning his tires in first and natural engine momentum took the revs over the type 2 limit. No mechanical money shifts involved. So it is simply an ignition set point monitored and used as a warranty check. From a mechanical/systems control standpoint this makes a lot more sense. This is the most logical theory out there and thanks to MidnighTT for first presenting it with real data. Since then one or two other board members have confirmed the ability to generate and log through Durametric, Type 2s without any miss shifts involved.

As a word of warning about clearing them. Yes some tuners can do that. As already stated with alot of new unsuspecting test drivers at dealers easily hitting that first gear scenario, Porsche probably expects "some" type 2s early in the engine's life, so zero would be a bit suspicious. Just IMHO, no word from Porsche on that either.

 

I have noted a couple of gents wondering about some of this... WELL, you are thinking too hard! Back to basics... The first post said it all, the rest is perhaps adding something to it but we are simply talking about a Type 1 and 2 AND a 1= the engine touched the redline, period. Type two merely means that it exceeded this by at least 1rpm. NOTHING more is recorded here. To try to figure out how long it revved at 6751rpm vs.... whatever you GUESS is a waste of time. The ECU won't understand one rev to 8500k vs one reve to 6751rpm. So, bothering to do the math is meaningless as it is purely guesswork and...frankly, a waste of time. The only point of relevance might be how long ago a given engine hit a Type 2 in that if a few more engine hours have passed you can feel comfortable that it probably wasn't revved to silly numbers and nothing was done to harm it. My readings here have led me to believe that it is ...possible... that a high rev leading to a slighty stretched rod -- might -- allow a given engine to run a short while before actually showing signs it is about to blow itself apart. My only personal relation is from SCCA racing when I got hit by another competitor and it knocked me out of gear and I revved a Cosworth mightly. I can tell you that it ran a couple more laps before I admitted to myself that the noises I was hearing wasn't just a broken exhaust [of course, I was full of red mist and insisting that my suddenly erratic oil pressure..was the gauge suddenly going nuts.... Somehow sanity prevailed and I shut it down before I put a large hole in the eninge. I have personal knowlege of 2 different Porsche 911s that were grossly over revved and they both incurred valve train damage without any lower end problems -but were rebuilt regardless. I don't know anyone that has had the experience of a slight rod stretch and damaged engine which took anything other than a millisecond to show up. I am not suggesting that anyone who says this happened to them is untruthful but I have never seen a clear documentation of this. I believe if you badly over rev your damage will be instant and obvious. I am always interested in being educated, so if someone has direct knowledge of this I would love to know [but love it a lot more if it would be a fresh post so we can separate these issues].

Raising your rev limiter is meaningless in this context except that it will allow you to rev more and put a lot more Type 2s on BUT the ECU is simple and will only understand that the engine has gone to at least 6751rpm every time it is exceeded. It will not understand that a particular engine has been flashed to allow a higher than 6750rpm redline and will merrily count each time it revs past 6750 as a Type 2.

Since I opened up the subject in the manner I did I should stipulate that I KNOW a lot of people who are aware that they have and can rev their engine into Type 2 territory but are not about to discuss it here because of all the nonsense badmouthing by some people that have been spitting all kinds of "facts" out online...including this list... and these owners don't feel like dealing with people claiming they are either liars or horribly abusing their cars so they stay silent.
Can you blame them?
JR

 

Hi JR
I think what you are saying makes a lot of sense. Since we seemingly all agree now that Range 2 over-revs are simply ignitions beyond 6750rpms, the question becomes 'what damage does that do?'. Your experience is also my experience: If the engine is over-revved to the point of damage, it is instantaneous and it usually/undoubtedly sounds like it. We probably have all heard the terrible clanking at one point or another at a track- or in our youth. Porsche probably uses that counter simply to confirm/prove that the damage to an engine was indeed caused by the event- and in that case, it is reasonable. The result is not a defect in workmanship or materials if the user slams it from 5th to 2nd at 90mph.

 

JR
Thanks for your explanation, you have made everything simple and clear. I can finally find the right answer which I am seeking for a long time.

For those who want to know about 996T tip, there is no range 2 in any case even you drove it as hard as you can if you don't extend the rev afterward. I check it by Durametic for at least one year from 420hp to current 600hp of my own 01 996.

 

Thanks for the info....we really needed it

 

I add my thanks also to the folks who contributed logical explanations. This subject has always been surrounded by mystique, best guess scenarios, and misinformation. I know I have some type 2's recorded when I did the PPI, and was concerned that my warranty might be in jeopardy. Although still subject to a potential effort by Porsche to deny any potential future claim, this thread has served to assuage what may have been unnecessary concerns on my part. Thanks Midnight and all the other gents who looked into this issue.