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TIME FROM PURCHASE TO FAILURE (Engineering report attached)
The frame of my 2012 Porsche Panamera S hybrid came apart with the car breaking in two on October 11, 2012. Grossly defective welds were the cause. It was not wrecked. I had bought it a few months before.
Its was a flawless performance sedan the few months before it failed. I had incredible fun with it and the whole "Porsche experience", particularly with the PCA people and events. Then problems started and grew worse very fast.
My car showing the left broken off frame rail end jutting out. The car broke in two during an attempt to load it onto a flat bed wrecker. The car was to have been carried back to Hennessy Porsche in Atlanta for its 4th evaluation at a Porsche dealer in several weeks for progressively worsening handling and steering problems.
Close up of frame side rail. This rail was later determined to have been bent prior to its being used in the original construction of the vehicle by Porsche.
About a month before the car's frame catastrophically failed, excessive tire wear was found and steering / handling problems began. Initially not too dramatic. Over the next 3 weeks or so, I fruitlessly sought answers to why my car was becoming undrivable. First I went to an independent Porsche shop for new tires and alignment and then to multiple Porsche dealers with nothing but a lighter wallet and throbbing ears from hearing 'honey, your car's just fine, it's perfectly safe" over and over. Though the car was under warranty, they did not see this as a warranty issue.
By my last visit to a Porsche dealer, Hennessey Porsche in Atlanta, I had a stack of alignment printouts that seemed to be screaming something was seriously wrong. Still nothing yet another alignment was done. Now I know during those three weeks, critical welds joining the car frame’s side rails and front cross member were progressively cracking. As the welds failed, the frame’s rigidity was being lost.
Performance car manufactures chase frame rigidity improvements in new models right along with improvements in horsepower and torque. It is vital to a car's steering, handling and in many of today's vehicles, the numerous electronic control and safety systems. All sorts of bad things can happen when those system’s sensors get bad data feedback because the basic structure is coming apart.
Toward its end, the car drove like an unmaintained, 50 year old Mack truck on ice. Constant, physically difficult steering corrections were needed to try and keep the car in its lane. But it still drifted and darted by its own whims and in response to the slightest variations in the road surface.
Following a near death experience of “self steering” on I-20 coming home from Hennessey Porsche, PCNA and Hennessey said I needed to drive it back to Atlanta for another check. I refused to drive the car back anywhere by that point though. After a week of me insisting they tow the vehicle, a flat bed wrecker finally arrived at my home several hours away to take it to Atlanta. While attempting to load the vehicle onto the wrecker’s bed, it ripped in two with the bulk of the car rocketing off the back, down a hill (nearly killing a mail carrier) and finally landing in a ditch. The wrecker operator had chased it and dove into the window just in time to divert it from splatting the mail lady.
LEMON LAW HEARING: ATLANTA, GA SEPT. 2ND 2015
Long story short, the Lemon Law hearing for the car is scheduled for Sept. 2nd, 2015. It will start with a vehicle inspection at 10:00 a. m. where the car is stored in Roswell, GA just north of Atlanta and then will move to the hearing site. ANYONE WHO WANTS TO SEE THE CAR OR ATTEND THE HEARING IS WELCOMED- email me at lmoore@ersrail.net for the address. Unfortunately, the inspection and hearing won’t be held at Porsche’s new 100 million dollar North American headquarters and test track which was recently completed just south of Atlanta. Only new shiny and intact Porsches there I guess.
Discussions with personnel at the Georgia Office of Consumer Protection (GOCP), they administer GA’s Lemon Law, indicate the hearing will focus on disallowing the car to be covered by the Georgia Lemon Law. The law does state new cars and demonstrators are covered by it. My car was purchased from Jim Ellis Porsche as a demonstrator, it was never registered or titled prior to my purchase. They want to classify the car as used though. By focusing on if this previously untitled demonstrator is new or used, is covered by the law or not, it will allow Porsche Cars North America (PCNA) to stay in the background and avoid the questions of how such a severe defect can still happen in today’s cars and how did such a gross defect get through Porsche’s revered quality control process to allow the vehicle to be sold to a customer. More importantly: how many other Panameras have this same defect?
The first few year I was filing documents and speaking with the GOCP it seemed clear this car was covered by the Lemon Law. Now they say no, and they are also saying this is not the type defect the law was intended to cover. Really???? Isn’t a car breaking in two somewhat on par with exploding gas tanks and unintended acceleration? Are lemon cars limited to merely having annoying defects, not potentially deadly ones?
I expect to lose this hearing. When it was based on the actual defect, I was quite confident. In December 2012, I had hired automotive forensic engineers to evaluate the car and to determine the cause of the failure. Their report, which is attached, is clear: the original manufacturing welds were grossly defective and one of the original frame rails was bent but still used to build the vehicle.
HOW MANY OTHER PANAMERAS ARE OUT THERE WITH FRAME WELD DEFECTS?
Anyone that has a Panamera with suspect handling issues, has had an unexplained wreck or if you know of a Panamera that has come apart, please contact me.
Panamera with retrieved front section in storage where it has languished since October 2012 awaiting Porsche to openly investigate this severe defect with me and other Panamera owners whose cars may also have this defect.
I am really sorry to hear about what happened to you. I'll give you my story and there are similarities here. Back when I was 18 I bought a less then one year old Ford Probe GT from a Ford dealership off their used lot. The car was sold from the used lot but it was driven by the owners son etc. and thus never titled. Within a couple months I had my transmission fail. Took it in and three weeks later got it back after they rebuilt the transmission. Keep in mind this was still under the manufactures warranty and had about 8K miles on it. Less then two weeks later transmission went out again. This was an automatic BTW. All gears except reverse were welded together due to the heat inside the transmission. 3-4 weeks later received my car back and within a short time same thing...towed back and weeks later fixed again and back to me. This was now the 4th time it failed. Picked it up from the dealership on a Friday right before closing. Drove home and went to work in the AM on Saturday and it wouldn't shift past 2nd gear. Towed back and got a call on Monday to come in and talk to the service rep. They told me that they believed I destroyed my transmission all those times and told me I had 24 hours to get my car off the lot or it would be towed to storage and I would have to pay. They told me my 3 year 36 month manufacturers warranty was null and void from Ford and I had no recourse. I had an independant transmission shop tear my trans aprart, video tape it and document everything they found. Turns out they never ever used an entire rebuild kit even though they ordered a full rebuild kit every time and billed the warranty. I found a good Lemon Law attorney and we filed a suit against Ford. Keep in mind this all happened before I even turned 19 and I bought it while I was 18. Ford refused to settle and we went to a 5 day jury trial 2.5 years later when I was now 21. Ford flew in engineers from Mazda in Japan who were part of the design team since Ford used Mazda transmissions in these cars. The dealership owners and Ford senior were in the court room all 5 days during the trial. I bought the car used BUT since they never titled the car the Lemon Law applied to me via that loop hole. I WON! Unanimous jury decision and I was awarded 15 times what I was suing for!
My point to you is my case set a precedent for lemon law with untitled used car purchases. My case is in the lemon law books and if you want any additional info feel free to ping me. This was a longtime ago but still relevant.
I wish you the best of luck as this was a horrible experience but a learning one for me.
Hey bud. First of all I am glad you are ok. Secondly please keep us posted as others may be able to advise better on your situation. If I am not mistaken in GA, the vehicle has to be over 6500 for it to classified as a used/pre-owned vehicle. There may be some exceptions. I dont see how anyone can force you to have it classified as a used/pre-owned vehicle unless someone is trying to avoid the lemon law ( I dont know). Speak to the highest titled individuals you can find and keep all copies of all communication. Really hope your situation gets resolved in your favor. Good luck
What is Porsche NA's side of the story? Why would they not want to correct this themselves? Not many of these cars fall apart, so why not deal with it quietly?
What is Porsche NA's side of the story? Why would they not want to correct this themselves? Not many of these cars fall apart, so why not deal with it quietly?
How many Panameras do you think is ok to fall apart? I worked directly with Porsche- completely non adversely until I felt it was painfully apparent there was no hope of Porsche acting willingly to investigate the extent that this defect is present in other Panameras and to protect owners proactively. THIS HAPPENED IN OCT 2012- I've been working through the "system" pretty patiently and quietly I think.
I wanted to handle this very quietly and initially totally internally to Porsche. I traveled to their offices in Atlanta multiple times, emailed and emailed, phoned and phoned.... nothing worked.
How many owners on the forum have heard a word from Porsche, their dealer or anyone else about my Panamera breaking in two like a pretzel?
This is not just a matter that your car may break in two- though that seems bad enough to me- even if your car has a lesser level of frame weld defect it can affect something as minimal as gas mileage, rate of tire wear, cause difficult and erratic handling, difficulty aligning the car AND THEN on to the really serious stuff. The hearing concluded yesterday with questions spreading to the potential impact of this defect on crash worthiness of affected Panameras, it's potential effect on air bag deployment timing (a split second to early or late and the bag is not at peak inflation when the peak level of protection is needed, right?), extent that crash energy will penetrate the passenger cell, etc.. That last one translates to the possibility of the frame of my car not absorbing sufficient crash energy that a rear end collision doesn't explode my gas tank, that a front end collision doesn't unnecessarily crush my legs, etc, etc.....
I have EXTENSIVE documentation of every bit of this nightmare. I will share every page, photo, etc. of it. A transcript of the hearing will be done by the state of Georgia. When it is available, it to can be read by anyone with the interest to do so.
Did Porsche Know? ABSOLUTELY Porsche Cars North America had written notification and extensive photographs a few days after my car broke apart and nearly killed the mail lady coming up the street.
This is the front of my Panamera. The picture was taken in Oct 2012. Doug House, laying down, Porsche Cars North America's technical expert (he was so named again in yesterdays hearing) is inspecting one its welds that failed catastrophically. He testified yesterday that he wrote and submitted an internal report for Porsche after the inspection.
FACTS TESTIFIED TO YESTERDAY AT THE HEARING
[1] Porsche has known of this defect since at least October 2012.
[2] Porsche does not dispute these are the original manufacturing welds.
[3] Porsche has elected to wait to resolve the issue with me before they act on this defect. To my knowledge and per testimony yesterday, NO technical service bulletin has been issued, no campaign has been done, no notification to owners of Panameras has been made to even bring their cars in for inspection.
[4] Porsche refused to report the incident with my car to NHTSA. I met with them at the Atlanta headquarters in Nov. 2012 to plead with them to do so. I also submitted request in writing to their in-house General Counsel.
[5] I filed a complaint with NHTSA in Dec. 2012 independent of Porsche to try and notify the government of the potential risk to other Panamera owners and to try to notify other owners in a manner that did not put me at risk to retribution by Porsche.
[6] I offered in writing to have Porsche perform any testing needed, within the U. S., of my car to evaluate the weld defects of my vehicle immediately regardless of the status of Porsche resolving the dispute with me.
[7] Porsche has refused to ever provide me with a written, complete repurchase contract.
[8] They HAVE required that I sign a statement saying I accept all terms and conditions of repurchase- it does not include terms though- accompanying letters however state I will be provided the complete terms and conditions AFTER I sign the statement.
[9] They have required that I sign a confidentiality statement. I have refused to do so.
THIS IS A PUBLIC SAFTEY ISSUE not the issue of me getting the money back on a car. That has been gone for 3 years, I've kind of gotten used to not having it anyway.
Sorry its taken awhile to get time to post the decision. Life has been a bit turbulent. The following are excerpts from the decision.
PAGE 1 excerpt of Decision (Moore v Porsche Cars North America, Inc.)
PAGE 3 excerpt of Decision (Moore v Porsche Cars North America, Inc.) PAGE 5 & 6 excerpt of Decision (Moore v Porsche Cars North America, Inc.)
While I'm appreciative of a favorable decision. I'm a bit confused why only a portion of my considerable expenses were ordered repaid. If the buy back goes through, I'll still be out of pocket thousands.
It took me 2 years and 11 months- over 1,000 hours of my time- to achieve this ruling. I was not able to get an attorney in Georgia to take the case. I was forced to either drop the case or do all the research, legal paperwork, process navigation and presentation of the case at the hearing myself.
I was astounded no attorney would take what appeared to be an easy case. After all I had already hired and paid the experts and was also willing to pay the attorney hourly and not require an contingency arrangement. Still no takers. I also paid attorneys in AL to try and find a Georgia attorney for me- strike out again- though they did keep the money I paid them to locate GA counsel.
I was told recently that Porsche Cars North America effectively blocks consumers in Georgia from obtaining legal representation by spreading legal work around to the product liability and lemon law lawyers in their home state. This "conflicts" the attorneys out from working for a plaintiff. I don't know if that is a hard truth or speculation by the party telling me. The person making the statement works in a capacity giving them direct knowledge of such matters so I found them credible for what its worth. Georgia, per Porsche's testimony in the hearing, is the only state where Porsche does not have a Certified Informal Dispute Settlement Program. Apparently they need one in the 49 other states but have solved the issue "otherwise" in GA, their headquarter's state.
Unfortunately, the reality of having a car with a serious defect- or any issue that could cost the manufacturer a lot of money- is that the auto industry has protected itself very well against such issues causing them unpleasant consequences. It takes a lot to get these things noticed. Even the current wee bit of scandal VW has brought upon itself developed fairly slowly. The report that revealed the "defeat" software was given to EPA some time ago but only recently got momentum, headlines and class action interest (see http://motherboard.vice.com/read/thi...swagen-scandal.
Also unfortunately, even though the hearing on my car was held by a division of the Georgia Attorney General's Office, it was made very clear to me in a phone call this week with the staff from the hearing that they will not be "walking down the hall" to others in the Attorney General's office to advise them of this defect or to encourage an investigation into the defect be opened. Developing the momentum to get Porsche to act on this issue or to get an independent investigation started is still very much in the hands of us the owners of Panameras and it is still very much an uphill battle.
So what happens now in my case? That is the big question. Porsche has three options:
1. appeal within 30 days of the decision being issued,
2. buy the car back as ordered (without requiring unreasonable terms), or
3. go through the motions of executing the buy back but include terms that they know I will not be able to agree to such as confidentiality, execution of a general release of liability, etc..
Stay tuned........
Last edited by PV=nRT.; 09-30-2015 at 02:51 PM.
Reason: Adjust font size.
Wow, this situation is pretty ****ty all around. I agree with you, even though you technically won, Porsche should have to pay you more for the years of dealing with this. Looking forward to the next update
So as I understand it, you cannot recover any additional costs via any means as per Georgia law? Therefore if there is (in future) a class action, that may be the only way to do so, if and when there are enough discoveries of similar or same defect/oversight, I would imagine. Really sorry things didn't work out all the way, but am glad that they did for the most part, sounds like.
09-01-2015, 08:46 PM
