yes the factory tranny mot certainly has a cooler, but in these higher HP applications its just not getting the job done. the friction and therefore heat is certainly what is destroying these weak clutches. apparently there is an ATF that is not porsche that does better with high heat but im not sure who makes it or where to get it nor what long term implications are. an additional cooler would also help but i expect there are no direct bolt ons and almost any cooler would be custom. cargraphic has a bolt on for 997tt but its thousands of dollars and i know better than that

 

hello guys,

i will try to answers some of youre questions.

i have done seven 997tip till now all working with more than 700-900hp .

i didn't upgrade any 996tip but i will do very soon .

if you look porsche ped 996tt and 997tip has same torque converter and same walvebody same oil filter etc, so it must be similar interior parts

my suggestions to 996tip and 997tip =
don't touch youre torqueconverter because it holds very well (my car has 50000km i have done 45000km with more than 650hp)

walvebody does't make youre transmision stronger , it makes the gearchange very fast and very hard ( sometimes it is not very comfortable )
if you change only the soleneids it isn't enough

oil cooler = as you know our cars (996 and 997 ) have already transmision oil cooler but you can install second one ( i have installed second) it drop 10 degree above 100kmh
oil is heating because youre clucths are sleeping above 600hp

my experience with 997tt= when you start to make less than 6 second to 100 -200kmh then very soon youre tip will starts to sleep

we are partners with switzer for this tip upgrade .

i don't know what the other tuners are changing, but all i can say if you do this upgrade correctly only the parts will coast you about 4500 usd.

it is cheaper to change only K3 clucths and change the soleneids and earn money but it will not hold

PS= to install new walvebody or second oilcooler you have to take out youre transmission




regards
emre

 

i have an email in to switzer. so i assume you guys are selling an all inclusive "kit" containing appropriate seals, gaskets, bushings, pins, etc for an upgrade/rebuild? is this a DIY provided appropriate skills? if not, should i expect my local MB shop or very well respected performance tranny shop to do it for me if i gave them the kit? i know you dont want to give many secrets, but you make it sound relatively easy. i know the VB, solenoids are easy to do. the clutch packs i assume are difficult perhaps not by themselves but having any seals, gaskets, pins, springs etc to put back together. i dont want to buy a kit unless its TOTALLY INCLUSIVE

i do understand the valve body and solenoids really dont contribute to strength but improve shifting through improving fluid dynamics. it seems to me that if you were only going to choose one upgrade, it should be the oil cooler. i dont mind dropping the tranny but while its out, might as well do it all! i agree TC is not needed unless its a drag strip car.

what valve body are you using? is it a modified stock VB or is it MB or aftermarket? do you have part numbers for MB or aftermarket? also, do you recommend a particular tranny cooler and do you have part numbers? i expect cooler to be custom fittings but a very typical cooler. also where are the clutch packs coming from MB or porsche or what? part numbers?

do u guys have a time machine and are going into the future to get these parts and then bringing them back to 2010!?!? this is all awesome information we are getting from you! thanks in advance for anything you can contribute.

 

Emre is correct, you can add all the coolers you want to band-aide the problem, but the clutches slipping is causing the added heat...

 

Well neil... Iv got an email in to u at the switzer website regarding a 996 kit. I think if i stick with the 24/18 build and goodies im gonna need it. Feel free to PM me with any details.

 

cant go wrong having switzer work on your car...

 

alright boys and girls! i have dug up some more options for tippy.

there is a place in Dallas with link freddiestransmissions.com These guys actually specialize in ZF and mercedes benz trannys which are the two you will find in your 911TT's, C4, and C4S. they claim they have rebuilt plenty. the trannys likely to be found are the MB's and are 722.6 possibly a 722.9 variant built by MB specifically for rear engine 4WD or there is also a ZF 5HP19HLA (i think more common in C4 and C4s). they can look up your likely transmission by vin# and production date found inside driver door. they ask that before contacting them to have a photo of your transmission pan and also try to locate your tranny casing serial number either on the driver or passenger side (mine was up high on driver side and i had to stick the camera up their and get lucky)

as you know the main problem regarding durability with the tip is the clutch packs and really not much else. they offer a special packing that allows more steel clutches to be placed in the critical areas. in addition, they are subject to electrical kit failure at some point http://www.freddiestransmissions.com...s.html#damages and have a soultion as well.

Regarding valve body and solenoid upgrades, they did not recommend this and claim that the the flash that is required when doing these can be hit or miss and really cause some serious damage. if you do desire this, they have some recommendations (in Dallas) but its discouraged and at your own risk.

they also claim that if you do desire an additional oil cooler it can certainly be accomidated but this is most likely an extreme condition.

i think if you take a look at their website you will be pleasantly surprised! their estimate for "soft rebuild' including overhaul kit with gaskets seals, etc, additional clutches for increased torque handling, and electrical kit upgrade is $2000 if you take/mail them the tranny and roughly $3000 if you take them the car (fluid service included).

they do not recommend "breaking" your transmission first! apparently once the clutches begin to slip, other more costly damage ensues rather quickly to other parts in the tippy.

i also talked with IPT they wanted $4650 for a similar build and $895ish for manditory torque converter rebuild or purchase new (otherwise no warranty). they do a valve body rebuild, pump, and extra clutch install (proprietary "in house" clutches)

on a side note for those who like to look may like these links!!
you might also like this all inclusive page on the 722.6 http://pdfcatch.net/ebook/722.6/ this whole page is nothin but technicals on 722.6 but check out this for sure http://www.ganzeboom.net/images1/ganzeboom/parts/Mercedes/722.6.pdf

also if you insist on it, I also found a place called valve body builder (very original) who install Sonnax upgrades into the valve body on these units. They dont offer any solution for the software upgrade tho.

i also found a guy who can do the torque conveter. when i told him my application he said "

Rick yes I would have to have your core just to get started. There are just too many different combinations, bolt patterns, and spline counts. We build converters that handle twice your HP so I see no reason we couldnt take care of your needs. Also I am sure we can save you around $500." he is at:
PTC Texas


817-563-5556 sarge@greatconverters.com

obviously its totally up to you guys!! iv spent a lot of time digging and unfortunately did not come up with any magic but i did find at least another alternative for us texas and surrounding folks. if you live up by IPT that may be the way to go. others praise MBK, so............?

if you do choose these guys tell em Rick from Houston sent ya!

 

thanks for the info!

isn't the 722.9 a 7speed tranny?

One thing that worries me about giving them the car (rather than the tranny) is that they are not porsche specialists...

also, why would they be against the valve body upgrade when everyone does it including MKB?? Do they not do the torque converter?

what type of power would it be able to handle? any warranty/guarantees?

 

looking into other options....

Renntech offers a tranny upgrade for only $2,500....i am getting the details but after reading different sources online i think it starts at $2,500...

also

I talked to a indy shop in Georgia below that has upgraded the 722.6 trannys to handle the power on highly modified e55s....they have had success using OEM parts, but the highest-end OEM parts (kevlar clutches etc..)

http://www.blueridgemb.com/child/amg.htm

 

Good Job!! I'm almost itching to drop the TIP and tear it apart this winter. I'm starting to be pretty good at it.

 

well i cant tell u for sure about the 722.9 but i thought he had said that. i may have misquoted or misunderstood because looking back he doesnt list porsche as having a 722.9 but a 722.6. and while we are on that, he is listing porsche on his website which is a lot more than most euro places are doing http://freddiestransmissions.com/html/mercedes.html so i think safe to say my bad on the 722.9 it is a 7spd. maybe its in another model (cayanne?)

regarding tranny removal, im sure the name alone will deter a few people. just like i would be leary of freddies hamburger joint!! i wish i could find a place called billybadassbulletproof2000HPguaranted4life996TTtip tronic@5second1/4mile.com but that place just dont exist it seems. but all kiddin aside these guys said they have done a lot of porsche trannys. unfortunately i didnt have him elaborate. but i would ***ume that a certain portion of these trannys had to come out of the car and not the mail box. he didnt seem scared of it at all. but again this is first time any of us have heard of this place so hesitation on my part and yours is understood.

regarding valve body, they didnt say it couldnt be done, just that with the complexity of particularly these trannys they didnt recommend it because if not done right substantial damage can be done. they did have a place that does it but was something that they dont do. also on this topic, i think you may agree that there are some tuners out there offering tranny flashes that are not working properly. this leads me to believe that unlike the ECU flashes perhaps the tranny flashes are not fool proof yet, and thats something my common sense confirms. i expect they are just raising rev limiter and putting tranny in some sort of "re learn" mode. MBK....now they may really know about the TCU flash, i just cant say for sure. and when these places say they are modifing VB's what do they mean? are they rebuilding to stock specs or what? i dont think anyone really knows!! i think with 700HP u not gonna miss a nano second of additional shift time anyway, maybe it will give you a chance to breath between shifts!

torque converter....i didnt even ask

they do offer a 12 month/12000 mile standard and http://freddiestransmissions.com/html/warranty.html but we didnt discuss specific HP limitations. i bet you could or they could (while in shop) send your VB off to MKB and flash for substantially cheaper than whole tranny, shipping, and build.

everyone is gonna have different needs, sounds like with power you making u may need MKB at some point. but others with less than 600WHP for example or just a high mileage, leaky, worn out tranny can get a better than stock rebuild for $2000-3000+ to me its almost worth the risk. id recommend getting your tranny id numbers and gather some thoughts and givem a call.

 

il give you $100 to pull tranny, ship it, full rebuild, TC, VB, and flash! and supersize it while ur in there!

 

great find on the Renntech dealer! this is where i had hoped this thread would go. sounds like we getting some options other than the he said she said $8000 job 2000 miles away

 

I talked with Akram at Motorwerks. If you don't know them, they work on very high end cars and are mercedes and porsche experts.

They have done lots of work on the 722.6 transmission for both mercedes applications and porsche. In fact, he said that Motorwerks builds the tips for Protomotive. They have in fact build 997 and 996 tiptronics. They have able to do just about anything including clutches, valve bodies, oil coolers, you name it.

According to Akram, they only modify the valve bodies for drag racing cars, apparently it makes the shifts VERY harsh (but very fast).

Anyway, he is going to give me a quote on what they consider their basic build which is consists of just modifying / upgrading the clutches and a TCU modification. This will be able to handle 4 digit numbers and shift considerably quicker (without modifying the valve bodies as far as I know). This costs ~$6k plus labor to take out and put back the tranny.

Once I get more details I will post them here. I would rather go with someone local and I don't really care what it costs (more concerned that it works as promised and has a warranty) so this is my likely route. He said it doesn't make much of a difference if I bring him the car now or after the clutch is shipping (but he did warn me of potential damage to the tranny in certain high power cases).

 

Gotta admit that id like to keep it in houston and i hv heard of akram. $6000+labor seem a little steep for sure tho! Putting 8k in the tranny and 8k in motor is little outa my budget, but will wait and see what hes got to offer b4 i get my pantys in a wad.