Can the 996 Turbo handle like a GT3?
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Stevo, Shilling is on a stock motor, with nothing but suspension mods. No aero, little weight reduction, only on R6's.
Slicks are worth 2-3 seconds alone, aero is worth another couple seconds on a track like LS, and some power wouldn't hurt either. Not to mention what a pro driver would do.
You are only making this worse for yourself. A cup car won't be 20 seconds faster than me on ANY track (except maybe the nurburgring).
Slicks are worth 2-3 seconds alone, aero is worth another couple seconds on a track like LS, and some power wouldn't hurt either. Not to mention what a pro driver would do.
You are only making this worse for yourself. A cup car won't be 20 seconds faster than me on ANY track (except maybe the nurburgring).
Graham might be no pro but is very capable.
And we are not talking a few seconds... more like 10 seconds
TBH, it was more on the post you made - Originally Posted by heavychevy
I said I beat a Cup Car that weekend. In a previous thread I have noted that we have members here who's cars that are easily faster than 6 cups and bordering on 7 cups. (Not my car, YET, but will be soon)
Best of luck kickin' their ***!... I'm done with this also!
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I am of the opinion that spending the money to turn a 996tt into a car with GT3 handling(forget about the NA vs Turbo engine thing) would be alot of money. Additionally I wouldn't want to spend that unless the cars handling is the limiting factor verses driving capability. I have no idea if the people here that track have maximized their driving skills so I will make no assumtions on that.
To me all I have gotten out of this thread is a bunch of arguing about who beat who at what track. And a bunch of "I think a 996tt can handle like a GT3 or better" or "I don't think it can be done". I would entertain any discussions on this, but I think this thread has lost its objectivity in the process. What are the limiting factors with the 996tt besides weight, suspension, throttle lag and AWD? I think that identifying all of the factors would be a good start. Then the discussion on what could be done to improve or change theses factors and the price involved could provide the answer to weather it is cost effective vs buying a GT3. So far this thread has been all speculation without actual facts. The fact is a stock gt3 verses a stock 996tt is a no brainer(assuming equal driving abilities). Their is alot of modding that can be done to a 996tt and their has to be a formula for GT3 handling in a 996tt that is proven.
To me all I have gotten out of this thread is a bunch of arguing about who beat who at what track. And a bunch of "I think a 996tt can handle like a GT3 or better" or "I don't think it can be done". I would entertain any discussions on this, but I think this thread has lost its objectivity in the process. What are the limiting factors with the 996tt besides weight, suspension, throttle lag and AWD? I think that identifying all of the factors would be a good start. Then the discussion on what could be done to improve or change theses factors and the price involved could provide the answer to weather it is cost effective vs buying a GT3. So far this thread has been all speculation without actual facts. The fact is a stock gt3 verses a stock 996tt is a no brainer(assuming equal driving abilities). Their is alot of modding that can be done to a 996tt and their has to be a formula for GT3 handling in a 996tt that is proven.
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I posted the results from the event Stevo, since you seem to be intent on calling me a liar. That is my whole profile from mylaps with picture of my car and all. You can search the other name and his car type.
Like I said before, there aren't many of us talented enough to beat a pro caliber driver in a Cup Car, but beating Amatuer Drivers is relatively easy. If you can drive.
Maybe you should consider a Manual swap for that tiptronic.
Like I said before, there aren't many of us talented enough to beat a pro caliber driver in a Cup Car, but beating Amatuer Drivers is relatively easy. If you can drive.
Maybe you should consider a Manual swap for that tiptronic.
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VAG, throttle lag? not if you have the right setup. Sure if you have one of those huge turbo cars, there is lag, but if you look at the power curves of a lot of the mid hp cars here, the curve looks more like a big block chevy.
as for weight, yes a cup car is far lighter and that equates to better handling for sure. The extra weight up front for the turbo does make it a much more forgiving car that the novice driver can do better with than a cup car.
As for modding it. I agree. I see the point in getting a turbo to a top level of handling, but if I wanted a race car, I wold have bought one. The turbo is a GT that can handle itself in nearly any venue, much better than any gT3 for sure which is a very specific use car. I love the GT3, but it is not for me at this time.
as for weight, yes a cup car is far lighter and that equates to better handling for sure. The extra weight up front for the turbo does make it a much more forgiving car that the novice driver can do better with than a cup car.
As for modding it. I agree. I see the point in getting a turbo to a top level of handling, but if I wanted a race car, I wold have bought one. The turbo is a GT that can handle itself in nearly any venue, much better than any gT3 for sure which is a very specific use car. I love the GT3, but it is not for me at this time.
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mmmm!
I have Steel Syncros, Cup Cables, RSR billet diff plus more in a tiptronic box!!!... what are you on man?... seriously I'm done with this, I am not replying to this thread any longer and getting into a full blown argument.
I have Steel Syncros, Cup Cables, RSR billet diff plus more in a tiptronic box!!!... what are you on man?... seriously I'm done with this, I am not replying to this thread any longer and getting into a full blown argument.
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You continue to argue what's in your car but you will never admit what it is. It's not a manual, that is clear from looking at your youtube in-car videos. You can also hear the automatic type downshift coming out of the last turn.
If it's not an auto, what is it? Or did you go and buy one of those fake sequential shifters?
If it's not an auto, what is it? Or did you go and buy one of those fake sequential shifters?
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Stevo, your car looks great in your avatar, by the way. And I am sure that the tiptronic the way you have it set up is great. I think this is one of those subjects that can be argued either way.
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VAG, throttle lag? not if you have the right setup. Sure if you have one of those huge turbo cars, there is lag, but if you look at the power curves of a lot of the mid hp cars here, the curve looks more like a big block chevy.
as for weight, yes a cup car is far lighter and that equates to better handling for sure. The extra weight up front for the turbo does make it a much more forgiving car that the novice driver can do better with than a cup car.
As for modding it. I agree. I see the point in getting a turbo to a top level of handling, but if I wanted a race car, I wold have bought one. The turbo is a GT that can handle itself in nearly any venue, much better than any gT3 for sure which is a very specific use car. I love the GT3, but it is not for me at this time.
as for weight, yes a cup car is far lighter and that equates to better handling for sure. The extra weight up front for the turbo does make it a much more forgiving car that the novice driver can do better with than a cup car.
As for modding it. I agree. I see the point in getting a turbo to a top level of handling, but if I wanted a race car, I wold have bought one. The turbo is a GT that can handle itself in nearly any venue, much better than any gT3 for sure which is a very specific use car. I love the GT3, but it is not for me at this time.
If price was not a factor, what would it cost to make a 996TT handle like a GT3? We know the HP and the TQ are not the limiting factors. It is in the handling and weight from my research. Right? So what does it take? Who cares if you would be better off buying a GT3. Lets discuss the facts and what is actually involved instead of speculating and engaging in pissing contests. I am all for the facts weather they are ugly or pretty.
Last edited by VAGscum; Feb 7, 2010 at 09:58 PM.
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This is not a discussion I like, because I truly love both cars (actually all three, GT3, GT2, and Turbo). So at this point I am bowing out. To many good people in here fighting each other, who really enjoy the same breed of car. Enough is enough.
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I feel your pain. I have been watching this thread for a while waiting for some good data, but have been let down so far. I guess I am a bit biased because I like turbo power, however I don't ignore the facts. I really like the GT3s and the older RSRs alot too. I hope my posts have not pushed you away from this thread. I am really just seeking answers.
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I feel your pain. I have been watching this thread for a while waiting for some good data, but have been let down so far. I guess I am a bit biased because I like turbo power, however I don't ignore the facts. I really like the GT3s and the older RSRs alot too. I hope my posts have not pushed you away from this thread. I am really just seeking answers.
not at all, I just don't enjoy seeing guys I respect, like HC and Stevo going at it. they can agree that they will disagree and leave it at that.
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Absolutely no one has said anything about beating a Cup Car in a full race.
The fastest RSR qualified Petit LeMans this year at a 1:21.299
Al Norton runs 1:29's fairly easy on off the shelf Hoosier R100's with PSM on and admittedly not pushing in the corners. A pro driver would run a 1:26 in his car which is more than enough to keep up with regular cup cars. (The fastest Patron Challenge Cup car ran a 1:26 something). The Evom's race prepped TT ran a 1:28 on R6's.
I don't see why this is so hard to understand. A little over 2 years ago, Al was running 1:50's in this same car (Minus a bunch of mods) and he's in his 60's.
It's right there in front of you, I really don't get it.......
Al driving the way he was would have qualified 7th in the PCA club race among all cup cars. If you think 40 guys show up to a club race and don't know what they are doing you are on something.
Leh Keen ran a 1:25 in a 996 Cup Converted to RSR spec, and a 1:21 in an unrestricted RSR. And he'd run a 1:25,1:26 in Al's car too. Which isn't nearly a Alzen spec car. But I'm sure there would still be be a bunch of nonsense doubting even if he did that.
Like I said, time will tell, and I'll make sure to point it out when it does.
The fastest RSR qualified Petit LeMans this year at a 1:21.299
Al Norton runs 1:29's fairly easy on off the shelf Hoosier R100's with PSM on and admittedly not pushing in the corners. A pro driver would run a 1:26 in his car which is more than enough to keep up with regular cup cars. (The fastest Patron Challenge Cup car ran a 1:26 something). The Evom's race prepped TT ran a 1:28 on R6's.
I don't see why this is so hard to understand. A little over 2 years ago, Al was running 1:50's in this same car (Minus a bunch of mods) and he's in his 60's.
It's right there in front of you, I really don't get it.......
Al driving the way he was would have qualified 7th in the PCA club race among all cup cars. If you think 40 guys show up to a club race and don't know what they are doing you are on something.
Leh Keen ran a 1:25 in a 996 Cup Converted to RSR spec, and a 1:21 in an unrestricted RSR. And he'd run a 1:25,1:26 in Al's car too. Which isn't nearly a Alzen spec car. But I'm sure there would still be be a bunch of nonsense doubting even if he did that.
Like I said, time will tell, and I'll make sure to point it out when it does.
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However you must not have seen my posts on Al's car. It's a hybrid Turbo Car with Built motor, Camber Plates, Adjustable Lower Control Arms all around (I think maybe cup ones) Solid bushings, upper rear control arms, Moton Motorsport 3-ways, 63 inch wing, huge front splitter, 8,000 rpm revving beast. It's not lightly modded in any sense.
But it DOESN'T have cup gearing, straight cut gears, it's not RWD with RSR uprights or a sequential gearbox. And it's DEFINITELY as fast as a Cup Car (not the new 450 hp ones) and there is still 200+ more lbs that can be taken out without gutting the car.
Last edited by heavychevy; Feb 8, 2010 at 05:20 AM.
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While the modded turbo vs cup car times tangent is interesting, the OP wanted to know if a turbo could be made to handle like a GT3. For arguments sake, let's just say you pull the complete suspension off a GT3 and put it on a turbo converted to 2wd (even if you had to weld up new pickup points, etc.). You'd still have 2 problems that you can't overcome short of anti-matter physics:
1) the turbo engine weighs more and is the wrong spot.
2) the turbo throttle is much more difficult to control precisely.
Some turbo guys may argue with point 2 by saying "well my car starts building boost at 2500rpms blah, blah, blah," but that misses the point. I'm not talking about boost threshhold, I'm talking about the huge delta in manifold pressure on/off boost mid corner when you are having to make delicate and precise corrections right at the edge of the grip envelope. The more power/boost you make, the bigger the problem because the torque swings are huge and difficult to control (build boost, release boost, build it again, release it). Watch the throttle map of a really good driver mid corner, there are constant adjustments.
So the answer is an unqualified "no," a turbo can't be made to handle "as well as" a GT3.
Lap after lap, every driver on earth (schumacher included) is going to make mistakes, and those mistakes are much easier to correct in a GT3.
rephrasing the question, "can a turbo be made faster than a GT3?" The answer is yes because horsepower ultimately wins.
1) the turbo engine weighs more and is the wrong spot.
2) the turbo throttle is much more difficult to control precisely.
Some turbo guys may argue with point 2 by saying "well my car starts building boost at 2500rpms blah, blah, blah," but that misses the point. I'm not talking about boost threshhold, I'm talking about the huge delta in manifold pressure on/off boost mid corner when you are having to make delicate and precise corrections right at the edge of the grip envelope. The more power/boost you make, the bigger the problem because the torque swings are huge and difficult to control (build boost, release boost, build it again, release it). Watch the throttle map of a really good driver mid corner, there are constant adjustments.
So the answer is an unqualified "no," a turbo can't be made to handle "as well as" a GT3.
Lap after lap, every driver on earth (schumacher included) is going to make mistakes, and those mistakes are much easier to correct in a GT3.
rephrasing the question, "can a turbo be made faster than a GT3?" The answer is yes because horsepower ultimately wins.
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This thread was a mine field from the very beginning…….so why not join in 
There are 3 questions raised here right from the beginning………..
1. “Can the 996 Turbo handle like a GT3?”
a. Is that a 996 or a 997 GT3????
b. Basically YES to both 996 and 997, with money, how much…well that’s another question!
c. What do you mean handle……corner speed etc?
d. If handle means driver control, feel and response……then NO, but please refer to 1b if you are not 100% convinced.
e. If you meant corner speed, then refer to 1b also.
2. “SO, the question is: Can you take a 996 TT, lighten it a bit (rear seat delete + rear cage), lower & adjust the suspension, play with camber, keeping it AWD etc and make a fantastic handling road car AND competitive track car?”
a. Are you driving both cars to draw that conclusion, as if you are driving this modded TT and a European or States Cup Car Champion was driving another TT that wasn’t modded then…..NO unless you decided to cheat and referred to 1b.
b. But what does competitive mean anyway…1 lap behind, ½ lap behind, right on their rear spoiler or just in front??, if you are racing against other TT’s and competitive was a car length behind or in front then YES, against GT3’s possibly but you would have to refer back to 1b.
c. Sorry forgot to add to 2b…….Against a GT3, for a quicker time, depends on the track and how many corners vs straights there are and if all is in favour of the TT and you have considered 1b. then YES.
d. Against a GT3RSR……NO, unless you have 1b on your side.
e. Against a GT3 Cup Car……Absolutely NOT, but you could also refer to 1a if you are not happy about this answer.
3. “Turning the Turbo into a TurboGT3?”
a. YES, anything is possible these days, with 1b then YES, if you are without the 1b option then sadly NO, but hey you already have the Turbo part, now you need the GT3 part….lighter and much better handling, so save up for 1b.
I think this is the question that should have been asked right from the beginning…….
Given that;
*Same track….let’s say Laguna Seca
*Same skilled driver
*Perfect weather conditions
*Same tyres
Can a
1. 996TT with 20K worth of any mods you want beat either a GT3/RSR/Cup?
2. 997TT with 20K worth of any mods you want beat either a GT3/RSR/Cup?
At the end of the day I am not sure what the purpose of this question proves, even if a TT could be made to handle exactly like a GT3 of any class, they are two entirely different animals for entirely different purposes. What do you like the feel of……. your Turbos coming on song or N/A?? Also, I am yet to find a race car driver from a serious race series that has a sunroof, stereo and A/C in use during the race!
However, with unlimited money sure it would and it should beat a GT3, or a RSR and finally a cup car, but for what price, and for what purpose……bragging rights?????? or enjoyment?????
On a personal note, I bought my GT2 because I love HORSEPOWER, if I loved HANDLING more then I would have bought a GT3RSR, and if I didn’t want to enjoy the car on the public roads then I’d buy a Cup, but seriously, are you racing the car every weekend?
I will however, give this thread an update over the course of this year to this question……
“Can a 02 GT2 with an extra 100RWHP and KW race suspension, Hoosier R6 tires, beat a GT3 or a RSR or a Cup Car, and if so..... by how much?”
Currently on a 3.12Km track with the long straights (top speed of 240kph), I am 4 seconds behind the quickest cup car, beat most GT3 and 2 seconds behind a RSR and this was before the new suspension went in, whatever the result though……you can bet that I will have a lot of fun trying.
Finally, whether you have a TT modded or not a GT2 or a GT3, and you have been lucky enough to make it a very fast track weapon or not, just enjoy it as they are all awesome cars!
and let the debate continue…………..
There are 3 questions raised here right from the beginning………..
1. “Can the 996 Turbo handle like a GT3?”
a. Is that a 996 or a 997 GT3????
b. Basically YES to both 996 and 997, with money, how much…well that’s another question!
c. What do you mean handle……corner speed etc?
d. If handle means driver control, feel and response……then NO, but please refer to 1b if you are not 100% convinced.
e. If you meant corner speed, then refer to 1b also.
2. “SO, the question is: Can you take a 996 TT, lighten it a bit (rear seat delete + rear cage), lower & adjust the suspension, play with camber, keeping it AWD etc and make a fantastic handling road car AND competitive track car?”
a. Are you driving both cars to draw that conclusion, as if you are driving this modded TT and a European or States Cup Car Champion was driving another TT that wasn’t modded then…..NO unless you decided to cheat and referred to 1b.
b. But what does competitive mean anyway…1 lap behind, ½ lap behind, right on their rear spoiler or just in front??, if you are racing against other TT’s and competitive was a car length behind or in front then YES, against GT3’s possibly but you would have to refer back to 1b.
c. Sorry forgot to add to 2b…….Against a GT3, for a quicker time, depends on the track and how many corners vs straights there are and if all is in favour of the TT and you have considered 1b. then YES.
d. Against a GT3RSR……NO, unless you have 1b on your side.
e. Against a GT3 Cup Car……Absolutely NOT, but you could also refer to 1a if you are not happy about this answer.
3. “Turning the Turbo into a TurboGT3?”
a. YES, anything is possible these days, with 1b then YES, if you are without the 1b option then sadly NO, but hey you already have the Turbo part, now you need the GT3 part….lighter and much better handling, so save up for 1b.
I think this is the question that should have been asked right from the beginning…….
Given that;
*Same track….let’s say Laguna Seca
*Same skilled driver
*Perfect weather conditions
*Same tyres
Can a
1. 996TT with 20K worth of any mods you want beat either a GT3/RSR/Cup?
2. 997TT with 20K worth of any mods you want beat either a GT3/RSR/Cup?
At the end of the day I am not sure what the purpose of this question proves, even if a TT could be made to handle exactly like a GT3 of any class, they are two entirely different animals for entirely different purposes. What do you like the feel of……. your Turbos coming on song or N/A?? Also, I am yet to find a race car driver from a serious race series that has a sunroof, stereo and A/C in use during the race!
However, with unlimited money sure it would and it should beat a GT3, or a RSR and finally a cup car, but for what price, and for what purpose……bragging rights?????? or enjoyment?????
On a personal note, I bought my GT2 because I love HORSEPOWER, if I loved HANDLING more then I would have bought a GT3RSR, and if I didn’t want to enjoy the car on the public roads then I’d buy a Cup, but seriously, are you racing the car every weekend?
I will however, give this thread an update over the course of this year to this question……
“Can a 02 GT2 with an extra 100RWHP and KW race suspension, Hoosier R6 tires, beat a GT3 or a RSR or a Cup Car, and if so..... by how much?”
Currently on a 3.12Km track with the long straights (top speed of 240kph), I am 4 seconds behind the quickest cup car, beat most GT3 and 2 seconds behind a RSR and this was before the new suspension went in, whatever the result though……you can bet that I will have a lot of fun trying.
Finally, whether you have a TT modded or not a GT2 or a GT3, and you have been lucky enough to make it a very fast track weapon or not, just enjoy it as they are all awesome cars!
and let the debate continue…………..