Ok, well the thread is opinions on air filter placement not, how many times Marski shoe horn in the fact that he has a 9sec car.


maybe this will make you happy.


1. your dad loves you
2. congrats on your 9 sec car


Now back to the topic.. Other than a 9sec slip and calling all the "big dogs"(because big companies that throw tons of money at a car to sell parts have to be right, right? If you spent hundreds of thousands on your car congrats, you must have a great job but perhaps not the wisest investment. Whatever floats your boat..


You would have better off saying, I run filters in my IC ducts. I tested the pressure drop across my IC inlet/outlet and I didn't have any ill effects, here is the delta before and after. (and oh yeah, I have a 9 sec car)


So, any helpful documentation(other than timeslips)?


ps - If I start my own IC thread will you promise to tell me on there that you have a 9 sec car?

 

You make yourself look foolish by saying stuff like that. A 9 second pass is big deal with a 996 turbo. Now is that because of his piping for the turbo, No. Also, 1/4 mile racing doesn't matter as much anymore because the real places people shine at are the roll racing events (more and more). This probably happened because half the big-money yahoos that own these cars only drive it once every 6 months, so they can't drive that well, unlike lots of people on here who put a lot of time and effort in and drive it daily/weekly.

Go to 4:35:





Fyi, I don't think you realize there is more than meets the eye in this thread. Not everything is in bold lettering. More stuff thats behind the scenes thats occurred over the years. I learned this by just researching and reading 100's of past threads for research for my build.

 

Your assuming a lot here. I am be no means discrediting a 9 sec car. I'm discrediting the fact that because a car with the air filter in the IC ducting can run a 9sec 1/4, STILL doesn't mean it is the optimal spot to place the filter, period.


If you can prove it by means of testing and science without spouting off how fast your car is, then do it. Telling me that a handful of cars that broke 60-130 records has them doesn't tell me anything about what happens to the airflow through the IC ducting. Their accomplishments are pretty awesome and I owe everyone that but, it doesn't technically mean much other than that they are cool cars that are really fast. There are a millions ways to do things. I know people have their secrets but cheating physics will never happen.


Throwing hundreds of thousands of dollars at a car doesn't prove that much. You can do a lot of testing for a lot less. In my opinion(and that is why forums are great, because they are here for people to express their opinions), there are ways to carefully calculate and test without "parts changing". I'm not saying you can do this 100% in theory and then build once but, I am saying there is no need to spend hundreds of thousands.


I'm not worried what anyone thinks of me nor am I trying to start fights on the world wide web, I'm just trying to get people to use their head.


There is no way you can put a air filter in the IC ducting and expect the same airflow results, period. The simple fact that there is something there, means there is an obstruction. Does it matter? Maybe not in a 9 sec pass but over a mile or two or a road course, maybe?


I can safely assume, that Porsche developed the inlet and outlet with cooling the IC's as a first priority while not upsetting the aerodynamics of the car (drag and down force). If they wanted the air filter in there with the IC's, they would have made the ducting much different.


OK, I'm done.. I promise not respond as, I guess I just don't understand??

 

Others have also made themselves look foolish on other threads at times, , which is part of the learning curve or ego curve.. LOL..

 

Pre turbo air temp sensor.



Post turbo temp sensor.



Intake air temp sensor, or post intercooler.

Those are my sensor location and my data acquisition is done by,

Motec M880 fully enabled $12k plus.
Motec CDL3 fully enabled $6k plus

Markski,

Can you list and show what you are using for your data acquisition? I will not discredit your 9 second run even tho it has not been backed up and even when you tried to you fell in the low 10's. As you said 100's have tried, myself included. After the roll race in Pocono I will hit the 1/4 now that I have a certed 8.50 cage and I can get my time slip.

 

How did you get the trans that low without disconnecting the shifter cables? my bad I see they are not connected now..

 

Here is my take on this thread (not that anyone cares...)

It seems there is always a balancing act with every modification.

Do the plastic intake vents create a venturi effect? Is "it" worse without them? Is "it" worse when a filter is stuck in there?

Theory is great, it's what got us here in the first place, but, and here is the big BUT,

Does it significantly (statistics definition here) matter? (This is where the real world results help determine that)

There are trade offs always.

It seems this debate is like that of cold air intakes and open element filters.

Do you get warm air with an open element, yes, does it matter as far as performance, yes, but BY HOW MUCH? xxxx results, "Now do we really care?"

 

Tim,
I wish I had your Motec, I do not as it is still on OEM ecu. But please give me lets say 2 months Im awaiting my trans as the OEM blew... I think I will surprise a few and yes even on a stock ecu with HUGe BMC filters above ICs... just for kicks, Ill run a 60 to 130 and a 0 to 300km... Im not here swinging my D@ck bragging.. and I wish I was on E85 because that blows away the race gas... and spools up big turbos way faster... All Im going to say is its coming soon.. then we will talk.. my car trapped 154.xx in hot summer day this year and runs 119s plus in 1/8 and I have a few slips not one glory pass.. I just dont post it...
and again, Im not here arguing nor trying to show off.. and I know your car is fast Tim... I can see the revs...
here are mine on a stock ECu...
best
markski

 

Stilov - to your point, different combinations are ultimately trade offs, however with the increase of mafless tunes, standalones and push-through systems - and these now being more prevalent to the standard consumer, there will be more questions about the potential for more efficient air delivery. Hence why i started (or re-started) the thread.

I don't think anyone will argue that our cars perform drastically better in cold air, and its been proven that reducing the turbo inlet pipe restriction also has a significant performance gain with respect to turbo lag. So is there an opportunity to leverage both of these together? And if so, what is the optimal setup including pipe sizes and filters?

From my standpoint, there is 4 options:

1) fender intakes
2) filter on turbo
3) Duel intakes - ala 997
4) Stock setup with hard/soft intake pipes.

I know that there is a bunch of cars running fender intakes. I think that the pro's/con's for these have been well documented with the main concern taking air away from the intercooler. However, i have yet to see a conclusive before and after comparison.

Tim, do you have numbers that you can share on your temps. Do you have ambient, pre-turbo, post turbo/pre-intercooler and post intercooler temps??

 

I love how hard that pulls! I need to get rid of the "tip" and get a manual tranny

 

To be clear, I am loving the fact that both of you guys have some really bad &ss cars that are extremely fast.


The data logging and what Tim has just shown, is how it is done, period!



That is how you test and tune a car. Sure time slips prove the car is fast and reacting well to mods but, how do you know what mods are doing what without data logging everything?


The reality is, a huge turbo forcing air through the engine will mask a lot of poorly executed mods(especially in a short burst or 9 sec run).


Everything needs to be treated as a system. If the intake, IC's, head and headers are maximized, your turbo doesn't need to work as hard(creating heat).. this is all simple. If you can't get any of that stuff right, throw a bigger turbo on there and pray it doesn't go bang.

 

Are you sure ??? What about Durametric showing a very happy log ? perfect IAT, timing, etc.. I dont need 1000 sensors or 9second slips to know my car runs well... even those will help..
Why do you think Durametric isnt "scientific" enough ?
I can back-up my statements with logs, or do we need aftermarket sensors to do that ?


My setup with fender intake on pump and meth runs bellow ambient and if my IAT runs even lower i really dont care as long there is no timing retard or any performance loss related to my system, any improvement will not give me much, if anything...

This thing is working and is working well even on pump only in crazy summer heat, i supose e85 will help a lot, not saying this system is the best, but is working at least for me and it should work for 99% of the guys here...

imo go put filters to turbos if you want to maximize performance, i think this is the best way if you loook for performance...and take care for rainy days.. if you take into consideration a lot of variables like : actual speed, outside weather, ICs, turbos size, type of gas used, level of boost and timing, etc, etc things might just change imo..

all of the above are ok, choose wisely based on your setup and driving behaviour...

 

Fadi you run pump and meth.

You do know that you dont even need an intercooler right? Your meth will bring down your IATs below ambient like no A2A intercooler can. I saw same thing in duramtric logs too when I used meth.

The point of the sensors is to see whats going on with the car for people that actually care to know and support what they say with data and not 1 timeslip.

Your first sensor tells you ambient inlet temp, the next one tells you how much the turbo heats it up ( from this you can tell if compressor is too small etc), finally the last sensor tells you how efficient the intercoolers are.

 

Yes Mark, you are right.. meth will make everything perfect when it kicks in... I dont remember exactly, but my 4.5" ICs and filters above them, running pump without meth even in crazy summer heat (30-35C or even more), IAT is staying bellow (but close) to 50C where i know ECU starts retarding timing a lot.

A better system might squeeze a bit more performance in warm/hot weather imo, installing meth is game over tough... everything looks perfect, even much better than running ms109 only

By the other hand, having those sensors is a nice to have, thank you for explaining everything, looks like a nice setup... i should upgrade to Syvecs at the end of this season

 

bringing this back from the dead ;

does anyone have any real world BACK TO BACK data as far as 60-130, dyno, or 1/4 mile to show the differences between fender intakes and filters on the turbos?

I'm guessing that the increased distance of fender intakes would slow throttle response down, and probably spool time.

I've also seen guys run the pre-filters on the filters on turbos to help aid in water and debris. Curious if anyone has gone from one to the other and experienced a difference in power / spool.