Again AWD vs RWD lap time, my experience
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Again AWD vs RWD lap time, my experience
So majority tells RWD vs AWD that RWD with LSD is faster and better to drive.
My experience;
I had AWD+LSD with 600hp and r-compounds, changed now to RWD+LSD and some shock tweaks, I become 1 sec slower on a 82 second track. I was not happy as I am very competitive driver. Yet it has awesome turn-in.
Had too much oversteer, I really hope I can get more speed out by also changing my KW Clubsport spring rates (70/190 N/mm = 400/1085 for USA). People like to give critic for this setup, however, my car has been very fast with these spring rates with AWD, no understeer with aggressive alignment. Also I know many fast guys with 997 GT3 RS with KW Clubsport that uses also this 400/1085. Keeping the soft stock swaybars help with this setup.
I am thinking of going either 80/170 (=460/970) spring rates (as in KW Clubsport for 996 GT2) or just go back to AWD. The spring rate delta between front and rear may look still too dramatic to you guys, but KW should know a thing or too. They either suggested me to go 100/190 N/mm setup as an alternative which is 570/1085. However, would like to dial rear side as the rear grip is the problem, not front.
Anyways, not satisfied with RWD conversion in terms of lap time given my first test. Of course I had too aggressive race setup but still. I even went MPSC 235/295 to MPSC2 245/305 and had more aero so car could have been faster!
Seems I am in minority but faster lap times with AWD+LSD than with RWD+LSD seem to be:
heavychevy
Basic
European car magazine (had LSD and went to RWD and 1.5sec slower on a 85sec lap: http://www.europeancarweb.com/tech/e...porsche_996tt/ - very similar to me)
Me (for the first test)
While fans of RWD+LSD vs. AWD+LSD in terms of lap times are:
pwdrhound
MrWhite
Based on this thread: https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...on-if-any.html
For me, it's now all about making the setup right, as I am fighting oversteer even in speeds over 200km/h in corners
Or should I just go to back to AWD...would not like though as I am thinking of installing a GT2 gearbox with proper cooler for the car.
Status as of today: I tuned the car to make it slower
My experience;
I had AWD+LSD with 600hp and r-compounds, changed now to RWD+LSD and some shock tweaks, I become 1 sec slower on a 82 second track. I was not happy as I am very competitive driver. Yet it has awesome turn-in.
Had too much oversteer, I really hope I can get more speed out by also changing my KW Clubsport spring rates (70/190 N/mm = 400/1085 for USA). People like to give critic for this setup, however, my car has been very fast with these spring rates with AWD, no understeer with aggressive alignment. Also I know many fast guys with 997 GT3 RS with KW Clubsport that uses also this 400/1085. Keeping the soft stock swaybars help with this setup.
I am thinking of going either 80/170 (=460/970) spring rates (as in KW Clubsport for 996 GT2) or just go back to AWD. The spring rate delta between front and rear may look still too dramatic to you guys, but KW should know a thing or too. They either suggested me to go 100/190 N/mm setup as an alternative which is 570/1085. However, would like to dial rear side as the rear grip is the problem, not front.
Anyways, not satisfied with RWD conversion in terms of lap time given my first test. Of course I had too aggressive race setup but still. I even went MPSC 235/295 to MPSC2 245/305 and had more aero so car could have been faster!
Seems I am in minority but faster lap times with AWD+LSD than with RWD+LSD seem to be:
heavychevy
Basic
European car magazine (had LSD and went to RWD and 1.5sec slower on a 85sec lap: http://www.europeancarweb.com/tech/e...porsche_996tt/ - very similar to me)
Me (for the first test)
While fans of RWD+LSD vs. AWD+LSD in terms of lap times are:
pwdrhound
MrWhite
Based on this thread: https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...on-if-any.html
For me, it's now all about making the setup right, as I am fighting oversteer even in speeds over 200km/h in corners
Or should I just go to back to AWD...would not like though as I am thinking of installing a GT2 gearbox with proper cooler for the car.Status as of today: I tuned the car to make it slower
Last edited by Kaizu; Aug 8, 2014 at 07:48 AM.
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Stock swaybars, they cannot be adjusted. H&R's earlier were too stiff for KW rear spring rate. Earlier with PSS9's they were great upgrade. A cheap option is to test lap times completely without a rear swaybar but that's a bit ghetto rain setup IMO 
P.S. Will also rebuild LSD but that shouldn't be the core reason at all. Check the European Car article above, at the moment I feel very similar. Still believe that through a better setup I'll be considerably faster, and I'm not wasting my time and money....Let's see...
P.S. Will also rebuild LSD but that shouldn't be the core reason at all. Check the European Car article above, at the moment I feel very similar. Still believe that through a better setup I'll be considerably faster, and I'm not wasting my time and money....Let's see...
Last edited by Kaizu; Aug 8, 2014 at 09:43 AM.
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Kai,
You can't just expect to rip out the front diff and make the car overall faster. This is where many guys that have done that go wrong. For cruising around the streets / canyons or stoplight to stoplight it's fine, but if you're trying to extract all the performance out of a car it won't work. Most guys that do this are looking at seat of the pants or Vbox acceleration data rather than quantifiable race course data that take suspension tuning into account. There is a ton of stuff that need to be changed including sway bar settings, alignment, etc., in order to make this work properly. You are also working with a KW coil over set up that was designed for be put on a factory AWD car with an open diff., rubber bushings in the LCAs, etc. This is not what you have anymore and that's why it's not working.
For one, and I know you don't wanna hear it, your problem is the spring rates. That huge front to rear split has got to give you deadly oversteer especially when RWD/LSD with the 996TT stock non adjustable noodle of a sway bar. Once I squared up my spring rates and tweaked the sways, my car became much faster and safer at the limit. Squaring up the springs rates allows you to charge the corners a lot harder as there is not an inherent tendency to oversteer. You will need to enter the corner faster and trailbrake deeper and harder in order to rotate the car under braking as the car will be geared more towards understeer. You will have to relearn driving the car because you will need to trailbrake through corners to the apex rather than getting on the power early (if you do, the car won't turn), but this will force you to "elevate your minimum speed" through the turn. Once you do that, your times will drop. I am running 1400/1500 rates, so basically a square set up. I have OEM GT3 sways, 5 way front set in the middle or one hole from full stiff (depending on tires) and 4 way rear set one hole from full soft. Incidentally, this is very close to the same set up you will find on a 996Cup which runs very similar 240/260NM (1370/1485) springs and the same sways. I am just slightly above cup height at 96/120mm which is 96/115mm on the 996TT due to the rubber bushings on the 996TT rear subframe. My uprights are Cup. Tires are either 245/40/18 and 305/35/18 Nitto NT01s or 245/40/18 and 315/35/18 Kumho V710s.
Alignment numbers in a nutshell:
Front camber: -3ş20’ (-3.33ş)
Front toe: +0.02' (+0.04' total)
Rear camber: -2ş28’ (-2.47ş)
Rear toe: +0.15' (+0.30' total)
Kai, running a 700lb split in springs really slows you down as you are fighting a lot of oversteer in the car which prevents you from pushing harder as the back end wants to keep stepping out. Yeah, as you said, the "car has awesome turns in", but that's about it. That's great for drifting but not much else. If you have a car that turns in super easy, it's gonna be a handful in sweepers at speed. That's not good and will slow you down. Stock sway bars are your other problem as you have no way to "tune out" the crazy split that is causing the oversteer. Get the GT3 bars, they're good.
When I changed to a square spring set up I initially hated it as I could not turn the car the way I was used to. It really made me alter my driving style and once I was able to do that, my times plummeted. It was like having to take one step back in order to take two steps forward which eventually turns into three and four. Having run 280/550, 600/800, 700/800, 1100/1200, and now 1400/1500, I have a pretty good comparison with spring rates. Each time the % gap front to rear has narrowed, the car has performed better. Note of course that 1400/1500 is more square than 1100/1200 which is again more square than 700/800 due to the fact that a 100lb split is a smaller % as you increase rates. FYI, Porsche went to an even 1485/1485 spring rate on the 997cup. I'm pretty sure they know a thing or two about making cars fast.
Finally, how are your tires wearing? My guess is that you are wearing the rear tires much quicker than the fronts, probably at the rate of 2:1 rears to front. On my car, I now wear out the fronts at the same rate as the rears which tells me that I'm distributing grip more evenly over all 4 corners.
I didn't figure all this out on my own Kai. Last year, I had a pro driver who has spent years racing Cup cars take my car for a spin around the track and tell me how f'd up my set up was. He is the one that completely changed everything about the car suspension wise and made it much much quicker. I always thought my car was dialed until he drove it. He changed the uprights, sway bars, shocks, removed all rubber from the suspension, calculated spring rates based on my corner weights, changed out tire sizes (I'm running 997GT3 sizes where the rear tire is about 0.8" taller than the front), aligned the car to his specifications, and finally dialed in the shocks by driving the car at the track. This guy is so good he even managed to improve the brakes on my car by recently installing a 997GT2 vacuum pump on my car because I kept complaining about pedal feel during fast full throttle to full brake transitions. He's hit everything dead on. I went from running my best last year of 2:01 (where I was stuck for several months) to turning a 1:55s in the last few months. This is a 6 second improvement on a 2:55 mile circuit. I was initially quite skeptical about many of the changes but results don't lie. I mentioned to him the spring splits some tuners run and he commented that every car he's ever driven with a KW set up had crazy oversteer issues. I have a feeling that is where your issues lie. I started out with a similar H&R set up. It was OK when AWD but sucked when RWD. Been there, done that...
BTW, do you have PSM on your car? If so, make sure PSM is completely disconnected (not just turned off via the button) so you know you are actually feeling what the car is doing without any outside interference.
You can't just expect to rip out the front diff and make the car overall faster. This is where many guys that have done that go wrong. For cruising around the streets / canyons or stoplight to stoplight it's fine, but if you're trying to extract all the performance out of a car it won't work. Most guys that do this are looking at seat of the pants or Vbox acceleration data rather than quantifiable race course data that take suspension tuning into account. There is a ton of stuff that need to be changed including sway bar settings, alignment, etc., in order to make this work properly. You are also working with a KW coil over set up that was designed for be put on a factory AWD car with an open diff., rubber bushings in the LCAs, etc. This is not what you have anymore and that's why it's not working.
For one, and I know you don't wanna hear it, your problem is the spring rates. That huge front to rear split has got to give you deadly oversteer especially when RWD/LSD with the 996TT stock non adjustable noodle of a sway bar. Once I squared up my spring rates and tweaked the sways, my car became much faster and safer at the limit. Squaring up the springs rates allows you to charge the corners a lot harder as there is not an inherent tendency to oversteer. You will need to enter the corner faster and trailbrake deeper and harder in order to rotate the car under braking as the car will be geared more towards understeer. You will have to relearn driving the car because you will need to trailbrake through corners to the apex rather than getting on the power early (if you do, the car won't turn), but this will force you to "elevate your minimum speed" through the turn. Once you do that, your times will drop. I am running 1400/1500 rates, so basically a square set up. I have OEM GT3 sways, 5 way front set in the middle or one hole from full stiff (depending on tires) and 4 way rear set one hole from full soft. Incidentally, this is very close to the same set up you will find on a 996Cup which runs very similar 240/260NM (1370/1485) springs and the same sways. I am just slightly above cup height at 96/120mm which is 96/115mm on the 996TT due to the rubber bushings on the 996TT rear subframe. My uprights are Cup. Tires are either 245/40/18 and 305/35/18 Nitto NT01s or 245/40/18 and 315/35/18 Kumho V710s.
Alignment numbers in a nutshell:
Front camber: -3ş20’ (-3.33ş)
Front toe: +0.02' (+0.04' total)
Rear camber: -2ş28’ (-2.47ş)
Rear toe: +0.15' (+0.30' total)
Kai, running a 700lb split in springs really slows you down as you are fighting a lot of oversteer in the car which prevents you from pushing harder as the back end wants to keep stepping out. Yeah, as you said, the "car has awesome turns in", but that's about it. That's great for drifting but not much else. If you have a car that turns in super easy, it's gonna be a handful in sweepers at speed. That's not good and will slow you down. Stock sway bars are your other problem as you have no way to "tune out" the crazy split that is causing the oversteer. Get the GT3 bars, they're good.
When I changed to a square spring set up I initially hated it as I could not turn the car the way I was used to. It really made me alter my driving style and once I was able to do that, my times plummeted. It was like having to take one step back in order to take two steps forward which eventually turns into three and four. Having run 280/550, 600/800, 700/800, 1100/1200, and now 1400/1500, I have a pretty good comparison with spring rates. Each time the % gap front to rear has narrowed, the car has performed better. Note of course that 1400/1500 is more square than 1100/1200 which is again more square than 700/800 due to the fact that a 100lb split is a smaller % as you increase rates. FYI, Porsche went to an even 1485/1485 spring rate on the 997cup. I'm pretty sure they know a thing or two about making cars fast.
Finally, how are your tires wearing? My guess is that you are wearing the rear tires much quicker than the fronts, probably at the rate of 2:1 rears to front. On my car, I now wear out the fronts at the same rate as the rears which tells me that I'm distributing grip more evenly over all 4 corners.
I didn't figure all this out on my own Kai. Last year, I had a pro driver who has spent years racing Cup cars take my car for a spin around the track and tell me how f'd up my set up was. He is the one that completely changed everything about the car suspension wise and made it much much quicker. I always thought my car was dialed until he drove it. He changed the uprights, sway bars, shocks, removed all rubber from the suspension, calculated spring rates based on my corner weights, changed out tire sizes (I'm running 997GT3 sizes where the rear tire is about 0.8" taller than the front), aligned the car to his specifications, and finally dialed in the shocks by driving the car at the track. This guy is so good he even managed to improve the brakes on my car by recently installing a 997GT2 vacuum pump on my car because I kept complaining about pedal feel during fast full throttle to full brake transitions. He's hit everything dead on. I went from running my best last year of 2:01 (where I was stuck for several months) to turning a 1:55s in the last few months. This is a 6 second improvement on a 2:55 mile circuit. I was initially quite skeptical about many of the changes but results don't lie. I mentioned to him the spring splits some tuners run and he commented that every car he's ever driven with a KW set up had crazy oversteer issues. I have a feeling that is where your issues lie. I started out with a similar H&R set up. It was OK when AWD but sucked when RWD. Been there, done that...
BTW, do you have PSM on your car? If so, make sure PSM is completely disconnected (not just turned off via the button) so you know you are actually feeling what the car is doing without any outside interference.
Last edited by pwdrhound; Aug 8, 2014 at 05:25 PM.
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IMHO, you should not be running spring rates greater than a 200 lbs. difference between front and rear. Surprised that that supplied spring rates for the KW Clubsport have a difference of ~700 lbs.
Get a set of GT2 (same as GT3) sways, lots of adjustments to fine tune. Hope you sort this out.
Great info from pdwrhound too.
Get a set of GT2 (same as GT3) sways, lots of adjustments to fine tune. Hope you sort this out.
Great info from pdwrhound too.
Last edited by 996TWINS; Aug 8, 2014 at 06:24 PM.
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Thanks for the responses.
What I am kind of trying to decide whether to go KW's 996 GT2 setup or more even spring rate split like all you guys and the Cup cars do. Currently in talks with KW Motorsport with this. Nice to see 996TWINS having good performance with more even spring rate and KW V3.
I race RWD cars and hold few (or at the moment at least one) street car lap record with my 996tt car and AWD setup, so driving technique incl. trailbraking etc. is relatively decent. I am capable of finetuning the shocks but first spring rates have to be decided. Damn you guys are making me feel bad selling my adjustable swaybars! However, I want always swaybars to be relatively soft (="oem") so they don't take away any grip from either corner.
I have driven this car over 10 years and crashed into wall with "PSM off" so that cable is long gone...
Really appreciate pwrdhound's input. He is the one who introduced me GT3 brake master cylinder with his brake line, awesome!
What I would like to bring to the table for you is that if you are interested in lap records, discuss with your pro driver about these changes:
- Add more camber to rear (don't know about Nittos, you might have even tire wear in rear with -2 camber but it just tells in corners you are not maximizing the grip!)
- Tiny bit toe-out for the front for a better-turn in (why aren't you already at toe 0?)
- Ditch the rubber in rear subframe. It is often in bad shape and you have went so far in your modification.....Also GT2 and GT3 has no rubber there.
- More aero is not bad
What I am kind of trying to decide whether to go KW's 996 GT2 setup or more even spring rate split like all you guys and the Cup cars do. Currently in talks with KW Motorsport with this. Nice to see 996TWINS having good performance with more even spring rate and KW V3.
I race RWD cars and hold few (or at the moment at least one) street car lap record with my 996tt car and AWD setup, so driving technique incl. trailbraking etc. is relatively decent. I am capable of finetuning the shocks but first spring rates have to be decided. Damn you guys are making me feel bad selling my adjustable swaybars! However, I want always swaybars to be relatively soft (="oem") so they don't take away any grip from either corner.
I have driven this car over 10 years and crashed into wall with "PSM off" so that cable is long gone...
Really appreciate pwrdhound's input. He is the one who introduced me GT3 brake master cylinder with his brake line, awesome!
What I would like to bring to the table for you is that if you are interested in lap records, discuss with your pro driver about these changes:
- Add more camber to rear (don't know about Nittos, you might have even tire wear in rear with -2 camber but it just tells in corners you are not maximizing the grip!)
- Tiny bit toe-out for the front for a better-turn in (why aren't you already at toe 0?)
- Ditch the rubber in rear subframe. It is often in bad shape and you have went so far in your modification.....Also GT2 and GT3 has no rubber there.
- More aero is not bad
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Really appreciate pwrdhound's input. He is the one who introduced me GT3 brake master cylinder with his brake line, awesome!
What I would like to bring to the table for you is that if you are interested in lap records, discuss with your pro driver about these changes:
- Add more camber to rear (don't know about Nittos, you might have even tire wear in rear with -2 camber but it just tells in corners you are not maximizing the grip!)
- Tiny bit toe-out for the front for a better-turn in (why aren't you already at toe 0?)
- Ditch the rubber in rear subframe. It is often in bad shape and you have went so far in your modification.....Also GT2 and GT3 has no rubber there.
- More aero is not bad
What I would like to bring to the table for you is that if you are interested in lap records, discuss with your pro driver about these changes:
- Add more camber to rear (don't know about Nittos, you might have even tire wear in rear with -2 camber but it just tells in corners you are not maximizing the grip!)
- Tiny bit toe-out for the front for a better-turn in (why aren't you already at toe 0?)
- Ditch the rubber in rear subframe. It is often in bad shape and you have went so far in your modification.....Also GT2 and GT3 has no rubber there.
- More aero is not bad
Addressing your points above:
- I'm at -2.47 degrees camber in the rear (-3.33 deg front) which works perfectly with DOT rubber like the Nittos or Kumhos. If I were on true slicks rear camber would be bumped up closer to -3.0.
- The guy that set up my car is not a fan of toe out in the front. He has always run all of his cup cars per Cup spec which call for just a tiny bit of toe in.
- I do not have any rubber in the rear subframes or anywhere in the suspension. I was saying that the stock 996TT does and that changes ride height measurement which is taken from the rear subframe reference point. Thus, my ride height of 96/120 on my car with solid subframes would translate to 96/115 on a 996TT with the rubber subframe bushings.
I'm glad the 997GT3 master is working out for you. I recently has a 997GT2 vacuum pump retrofitted to my car (it's a straight bolt on) and it makes a noticeable improvement in brake feel. Excellent mod and something to think about.
Last edited by pwdrhound; Aug 11, 2014 at 08:56 AM.
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With my 2001 6TT (AWD) k16 1bar, PSS9, track aligned, GT2RS ICs I was 2-3 sec faster than my new to me 7.1GT3 at Laguna (1:40 vs 1:43) and Sears Point (1:52 vs 1:54). Both tracks that like high torque for pulling up the hills. I was actually a little faster at THill in the GT3 however.
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[QUOTE=pwdrhound;4171183]Kai,
You can't just expect to rip out the front diff and make the car overall faster. This is where many guys that have done that go wrong. For cruising around the streets / canyons or stoplight to stoplight it's fine, but if you're trying to extract all the performance out of a car it won't work.
Not sure where you get your info, but my AWD 997.1 and my friend's GTR, both AWD vehicles, on street racing, dust off all 700 HP shelbys, 1000 HP vettes, vipers, and SC C6 vettes 0-80 street racing. The key is with RR drive, the cars can't hook up like AWD and just sit back smokin tires while AWD cars smoke 'em big time. Sometimes, these high HP RR drive cars will sit back and get rear tires hot by smokin 'em, but that gains them some acceleration speed but not that much. RR dr cars are losers for street racing compared to AWD. Sometimes on track pavement, if tires hot enough, RR may have a better chance but never seen such a miracle at our track.
You can't just expect to rip out the front diff and make the car overall faster. This is where many guys that have done that go wrong. For cruising around the streets / canyons or stoplight to stoplight it's fine, but if you're trying to extract all the performance out of a car it won't work.
Not sure where you get your info, but my AWD 997.1 and my friend's GTR, both AWD vehicles, on street racing, dust off all 700 HP shelbys, 1000 HP vettes, vipers, and SC C6 vettes 0-80 street racing. The key is with RR drive, the cars can't hook up like AWD and just sit back smokin tires while AWD cars smoke 'em big time. Sometimes, these high HP RR drive cars will sit back and get rear tires hot by smokin 'em, but that gains them some acceleration speed but not that much. RR dr cars are losers for street racing compared to AWD. Sometimes on track pavement, if tires hot enough, RR may have a better chance but never seen such a miracle at our track.
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Not sure where you get your info, but my AWD 997.1 and my friend's GTR, both AWD vehicles, on street racing, dust off all 700 HP shelbys, 1000 HP vettes, vipers, and SC C6 vettes 0-80 street racing. The key is with RR drive, the cars can't hook up like AWD and just sit back smokin tires while AWD cars smoke 'em big time. Sometimes, these high HP RR drive cars will sit back and get rear tires hot by smokin 'em, but that gains them some acceleration speed but not that much. RR dr cars are losers for street racing compared to AWD. Sometimes on track pavement, if tires hot enough, RR may have a better chance but never seen such a miracle at our track.
I'm pretty sure if you read this thread again you will realize that neither the OP nor I were talking about the merits of RWD vs. AWD in the course of dusting other cars while "street racing". The OP is talking about the performance and lap times of his car on a road course rather than straight line competition while "street racing" or "drag racing".
To answer your question, I get my information based on running and data logging the same car, under the same conditions, on the same 2.5 mile 15 turn track, in various AWD and RWD configurations. Hope that sheds some light on it.
Last edited by pwdrhound; Aug 12, 2014 at 04:52 PM.
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i take umbrage at the suggestion that any rwd w lsd setup is either wrong or only good for a leisurely stroll through a local canyon on the way to the next stoplight.
i would theoretically give anyone a run for their money up some of these hills. with jeff zwart being the most notable exception. my point, if there is one, is that one should not be too quick to underestimate the performance requirements of or even skill levels in getting uphills quickly and with stability. that is best achieved with rwd and lsd. yes, even in a canyon, albeit on the way to the next stoplight lol
for those that appreciate cup car audibles ..ya ain't gonna do this sh*t awd..
i would theoretically give anyone a run for their money up some of these hills. with jeff zwart being the most notable exception. my point, if there is one, is that one should not be too quick to underestimate the performance requirements of or even skill levels in getting uphills quickly and with stability. that is best achieved with rwd and lsd. yes, even in a canyon, albeit on the way to the next stoplight lol
for those that appreciate cup car audibles ..ya ain't gonna do this sh*t awd..
Last edited by '02996ttx50; Aug 12, 2014 at 09:45 PM.
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I'm pretty sure if you read this thread again you will realize that neither the OP nor I were talking about the merits of RWD vs. AWD in the course of dusting other cars while "street racing". The OP is talking about the performance and lap times of his car on a road course rather than straight line competition while "street racing" or "drag racing".
To answer your question, I get my information based on running and data logging the same car, under the same conditions, on the same 2.5 mile 15 turn track, in various AWD and RWD configurations. Hope that sheds some light on it.
To answer your question, I get my information based on running and data logging the same car, under the same conditions, on the same 2.5 mile 15 turn track, in various AWD and RWD configurations. Hope that sheds some light on it.