Hybrids vs. K24's???
I think a k24 up against a standard k16/24 hybrid will be closer.
I just want to point out that not every "HYBRID" turbo is a UMW Zero Clearance turbo. Thus a standard k16/24 hybrid by tuner xxx may not and I believe will not do as well at the strip and 60 to 130.
Price counts too. Im sure the ZC UMW( I know I had them) is considerably more then any k24( obo $2500 outright).
I think too many variables come into play... hard to compare... I did have FVD k24s with the stage 4 ecu. I also had stage 5 UMW turbos ZC & GIAC software.
I averaged 123 MPH in my k24s and 126 mph in my stage 5. I must point out that both had stock wastegate springs at the time.
With UMW turbos you get what you pay for... pure and simple.
markski
I just want to point out that not every "HYBRID" turbo is a UMW Zero Clearance turbo. Thus a standard k16/24 hybrid by tuner xxx may not and I believe will not do as well at the strip and 60 to 130.
Price counts too. Im sure the ZC UMW( I know I had them) is considerably more then any k24( obo $2500 outright).
I think too many variables come into play... hard to compare... I did have FVD k24s with the stage 4 ecu. I also had stage 5 UMW turbos ZC & GIAC software.
I averaged 123 MPH in my k24s and 126 mph in my stage 5. I must point out that both had stock wastegate springs at the time.
With UMW turbos you get what you pay for... pure and simple.
markski
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2001 996TT 3.6L and stock ECU
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2001 996TT 3.6L and stock ECU
9.66 seconds @ 147.76 mph 1/4 mile click to view
160 mph @ 9.77 seconds in 1/4 mile click to view
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Originally Posted by MARKSKI
I think a k24 up against a standard k16/24 hybrid will be closer.
I just want to point out that not every "HYBRID" turbo is a UMW Zero Clearance turbo. Thus a standard k16/24 hybrid by tuner xxx may not and I believe will not do as well at the strip and 60 to 130.
Price counts too. Im sure the ZC UMW( I know I had them) is considerably more then any k24( obo $2500 outright).
I think too many variables come into play... hard to compare... I did have FVD k24s with the stage 4 ecu. I also had stage 5 UMW turbos ZC & GIAC software.
I averaged 123 MPH in my k24s and 126 mph in my stage 5. I must point out that both had stock wastegate springs at the time.
With UMW turbos you get what you pay for... pure and simple.
markski
I just want to point out that not every "HYBRID" turbo is a UMW Zero Clearance turbo. Thus a standard k16/24 hybrid by tuner xxx may not and I believe will not do as well at the strip and 60 to 130.
Price counts too. Im sure the ZC UMW( I know I had them) is considerably more then any k24( obo $2500 outright).
I think too many variables come into play... hard to compare... I did have FVD k24s with the stage 4 ecu. I also had stage 5 UMW turbos ZC & GIAC software.
I averaged 123 MPH in my k24s and 126 mph in my stage 5. I must point out that both had stock wastegate springs at the time.
With UMW turbos you get what you pay for... pure and simple.
markski
Kevin,
The price is good... I know... especially for the performance... My stage 5s ZC were considerably more .. it was $2500 more with the program... but back then I didnt get it from kevin. at the time he was doing turbos for other tuners...
I had a good experience with ZC turbos... well worth it...
mark
The price is good... I know... especially for the performance... My stage 5s ZC were considerably more .. it was $2500 more with the program... but back then I didnt get it from kevin. at the time he was doing turbos for other tuners...
I had a good experience with ZC turbos... well worth it...
mark
__________________
2001 996TT 3.6L and stock ECU
9.66 seconds @ 147.76 mph 1/4 mile click to view
160 mph @ 9.77 seconds in 1/4 mile click to view
50% OFF ON PORSCHE ECU TUNING BLACK FRIDAY SPECIAL
2001 996TT 3.6L and stock ECU
9.66 seconds @ 147.76 mph 1/4 mile click to view
160 mph @ 9.77 seconds in 1/4 mile click to view
50% OFF ON PORSCHE ECU TUNING BLACK FRIDAY SPECIAL
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This is all great info. You guys all have my head spinning now. Guys like me that are on the fence as to which product to buy would really benefit from an open dyno shootout of some of the different options where we can go and see for ourselves the pros and cons to each set up.
Originally Posted by KPG
Mike, looks like today is your lucky day. Here is all the data you requested. A head to head dyno plot with UMW stg2 ZC hybrids against a GIAC STG4 with upgraded WG's on the exact same Mustang dyno at the same facility here in MI.Both cars were running pump gas files at the time and I am sure a race file would be even better. The owner of the Stg4 is a fellow 6speeder and happens to be the dyno operator at this facility. There is no magic beyond well engineered hybrids and programming specifically written to those exact turbos.I have posted my dyno run and the dyno run log in 100rpm intervals. The other sheet is the stage4. I also included an Excel spreadsheet comparing both runs in 100 rpm interval. As you can see it isnt even close. Significantly more HP and TQ down low and higher TQ and HP up high as well with better peak numbers.I also included my posted trap of 128.2 mph in a 3760 lb AWD TT. Most straight stg4's with full weight are trapping 124-126mph in the 1/4. You can also check the 60-130 standings as well and see that my hybrids did a 7.93 whereas the nearest K24 car was a Revo at 9.5 secs. At the 600 crank HP level there really is no downside to a hybrid.It is cheaper than a stg4 as well. Anyway, hope this clears up any of your confusion on hybrids. All this data has been posted previously, just have to go look for it. Looking forward to the results from your dyno day
...Kevin
...KevinWith all due respect, how is that an apples to apples comparison? You are comparing two different cars with different programming. Unless I am missing something?
Also, there is other critical data missing from your post. Where are the logs for ignition advance, knock correction, and most importantly, boost?
We could easily run a pound or two more on K24's to show bigger #'s, but for maximum reliability, we don't.
And for the non-techy folks reading this, the compressor maps for K24's are made public so we know the efficiency range of these turbos. In laymans terms, tuning is not based on a guess (not saying that Kevin is doing that), but done with concrete data from the manufacturer.
Someone convince me otherwise, please. I will gladly man up and admit I'm wrong if someone can provide some hard data that they are better. Until then, I'm just not convinced.
Last edited by Josh/AWE; Feb 23, 2007 at 12:40 PM.
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Ok, Mike, you use the words, "non techy" when referring to me, I guess!!! Just kidding. I really appreciate all your data and info. It is really helping me make an educated decision about which way to go. Because my biggest questions about doing this modification are reliability first and performance second.
Originally Posted by Kevinw23
Ok, Mike, you use the words, "non techy" when referring to me, I guess!!! Just kidding. I really appreciate all your data and info. It is really helping me make an educated decision about which way to go. Because my biggest questions about doing this modification are reliability first and performance second.
No, that was not directed at you.Glad I can help. Conversations like this will only help the community.
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Originally Posted by Mike/A.W.E.
Kevin-
With all due respect, how is that an apples to apples comparison? You are comparing two different cars with different programming. Unless I am missing something?
Also, there is other critical data missing from your post. Where are the logs for ignition advance, knock correction, and most importantly, boost?
We could easily run a pound or two more on K24's to show bigger #'s, but for maximum reliability, we don't.
And for the non-techy folks reading this, the compressor maps for K24's are made public so we know the efficiency range of these turbos. In laymans terms, tuning is not based on a guess (not saying that Kevin is doing that), but done with concrete data from the manufacturer.
Someone convince me otherwise, please. I will gladly man up and admit I'm wrong if someone can provide some concrete data that they are better. Until then, I'm just not convinced.
With all due respect, how is that an apples to apples comparison? You are comparing two different cars with different programming. Unless I am missing something?
Also, there is other critical data missing from your post. Where are the logs for ignition advance, knock correction, and most importantly, boost?
We could easily run a pound or two more on K24's to show bigger #'s, but for maximum reliability, we don't.
And for the non-techy folks reading this, the compressor maps for K24's are made public so we know the efficiency range of these turbos. In laymans terms, tuning is not based on a guess (not saying that Kevin is doing that), but done with concrete data from the manufacturer.
Someone convince me otherwise, please. I will gladly man up and admit I'm wrong if someone can provide some concrete data that they are better. Until then, I'm just not convinced.
Originally Posted by KPG
Mike, I guess I am not sure what you are asking. You wanted to see hard data between a comparison YOU asked for and I provided it. These were run on the exact same dyno and the other car was running the same programming you sell.If you like you could PM the dyno tech and he is the EVO/GIAC STG4 owner so he hardly could be considered biased, he is Rico930 on this site. Both cars were running 1.25 bar with the same fuel. As far as getting all techy, I guess i would rather just stick with track times and dyno sheets since that is easier for most people to understand. As far as concrete data, I just showed you dyno sheets and a 1/4 mile slip that no full weight TT with K24's have surpassed to my knowledge. If track slips and a head to head run on the same dyno you own isnt enough, I dont think anything will convince you...Be good, Kevin
I still don't agree with using two different cars, but I think most will understand my point. Did both cars have the exact same software from the same programmer? Were they both G.I.A.C?
With a Mustang Dyno, you can log boost and A/F. We then graph it on same sheet as the HP and TQ figures. We can pinpoint what the car is doing at any time of the pull. I'm really interested in those comparisons.
I'm sure I don't have to tell you how critical timing and knock are? All play factors in power #'s.
There are just a few of other factors that come into play when doing a comparison like this.
Honestly, I think you owe it to the readers to provide the other info stated in my other post. 6speeders LOVE techy...
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Originally Posted by Mike/A.W.E.
Same dyno is a start. Hats off for that. Most don't even know to do that...
I still don't agree with using two different cars, but I think most will understand my point. 6speeders LOVE techy...
I still don't agree with using two different cars, but I think most will understand my point. 6speeders LOVE techy...
Anyway, I agree that "techy" is good . Later, Kevin
Originally Posted by KPG
Mike, I guess maybe I missed your intial point. You said previously that you didnt see the benefit to a hybrid over a straight 24 at the 600 hp level. I didnt know you were looking for a comparison between hybrids and 24's with the same programming.
You say they both ran 1.25 bar? Ok, where? When?
If the other programmer was running more timing, wouldn't that play a factor as well?
Do you see my point?
I just don't think you are painting an accurate picture for the readers.
Originally Posted by KPG
Honestly, MIke....If you have followed any of my posts I have posted more track slips , GPS data and dyno data than most on this site so you cant really say I havent provided enough data.
I want to know what the engine was doing at the time of the tests. That will make me a believer.
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KPG is the GIAC STG4 turbo car running the stock K24 turbo's or it it like the K24/18's I am running from Protomotive? Thanks for posting the data BTW. I am just trying to follow this along and want to know what is exactly being compaired. Thanks.
Originally Posted by JWC
KPG is the GIAC STG4 turbo car running the stock K24 turbo's or it it like the K24/18's I am running from Protomotive? Thanks for posting the data BTW. I am just trying to follow this along and want to know what is exactly being compaired. Thanks.
He is comparing K24's with GIAC software to a different car with hybrids and somebody elses tuning.
Which brings me to my point. I don't see how that is an equal comparison.
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Thanks Mike. I was just wondering I'm only six months old in the P car world. I have an 03 KB Cobra that puts out over 560 RWHP. I can follow the Ford performance upgrades but when I was doing my performance quest for my P car I got confused real quick and still do most of the time LOL. P people talk in "motor HP" figures and that alone confuses me. I am still a newby just trying to learn.