Again, this is hearsay that doesn't hold much weight on it's own.

You can't draw conclusions from this type of information unless you know exactly what components were on his car and have an accurate description of the symptoms, as well as the conditions in which the symptoms started. Based on my experience and knowledge of the product, it's safe to say that the driver may have incurred a problem and just did not have the proper understanding of the brake system to accurately describe it.

The Brembo Aftermarket and Racing brake systems for the Porsche's all utilize 2pc. fully floating rotors. These are virtually impossible to warp, and without a doubt offer more heat capacity and better cooling than "stock steels". Seeing as how warping is not physically possible as described, he my have had an issue that is commonly referred to as "uneven pad transfer". This could occur for many different reasons, unrelated to the quality and performance of the product, and result in symptoms similar to what would normally be described as a warped disc.

I've worked with the Brembo products for well over 10 years, and have worked for Race Technologies (Brembo's sole US distributor for High Performance) for over 6. I have yet to see a warped 2pc. rotor from Brembo and encourage anyone who has to bring it to my attention and I will eat every word I have ever shared about brakes.

Yes, I work for Brembo's High Performance distributor for the US.
My place of employment and my experience with the products go hand in hand. My experience runs 10 years deep, from behind the wheel and track side just as much as behind the counter and on the other end of the phone. I work have worked directly with many professional race teams, in their shops and track side in the pits, as well as many of the industries leading tuners and car builders. I have first hand experience with not only Brembo products, but nearly every other supplier from AP - Alcon, Rotora - StopTech, PFC - Movit, and Wilwood - home made kits with virtually any combination of popular calipers and rotors you can think of.

Rather than questioning my motives based on where I work, feel free to question any of the brake related information you like and we can continue the discussion.

 

How about I leave you alone and you continue to push your products from a marketing standpoint.

I'm sure we could get a stoptech, AP, alcon, wilwood and anyone else in here to tell us why they are better and that have the same "experience" as you, but I'd rather listen to the guys that track the cars with the products on them. The same ones that may have a problem and you blame their pad choice and fluid choice rather than admit that there could be a possiblity that the kit wasnt up to the task.

Excuse me for assusing you of a bit of bias. I have no further questions.

 

I really think that the people who criticize PCCB's or carbon-based braking systems are all Luddites. Yes today they are more expensive. And yes, they can be fragile. But they are still in the early phase of the evolutionary cycle. The benefits of low weight, incredible heat management and durability ensure that they are almost certainly going to be the 'standard' in the next few years. And the comments about overkill ignore the radical reduction in unsprung weight.
Sounds like auto/dual-clutches a few years back, and ABS before that, and EFI before that.

 

<o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com<img src=" images="" smilies="" redface.gif="" border="0" alt="" title="Embarrassment" smilieid="3" class="inlineimg"></o:smarttagtype> I have been following this thread. Someone wanted an owners/drivers point of view about some aftermarket brake systems so here is my .02 cents.

I own (3) Ferrari 360 Challenge cars, a 2004 996 Turbo S, a GT3, ZR1, and a few others. Last year we wanted to go run at the Cavallino Event in <st1:city u1:st="on"><st1><st1:city w:st="on"><st1>West Palm Beach </st1></st1:city></st1></st1:city>with the other Ferrari owners and it had come to my attention that we were going through 4-5 sets of rotors and pads per season on each of the 360 Challenge cars. So we started to look for an upgrade. We had only one option which was the MovIt CER Ceramic kit. I wanted to run a Brembo Ceramic kit but they would not make one for the 360 Challenge plus the Kit was 30K even if it did fit.
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So long story short we bought the MovIt CER Ceramics and MovIt’s owner from <st1:country-region u1:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Germany</st1:country-region></st1:country-region> and the owner of the <st1:country-region u1:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">USA</st1:country-region></st1:country-region> distributorship offered to fly to West Palm Beach to oversee the installation and the first use of these CER brakes on a vehicle in the <st1><st1:country-region u1:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1>USA</st1>. </st1:country-region></st1:country-region></st1>This was last January 2008. So we beat the living daylights out of these for 3 days. We were flying by cars just before the corners because you could delay braking that late. 2, 3, 4 cars at a time. Handling was definitely improved from quicker steering, car seamed to spin up faster, and we experienced ZERO brake fade all day. In addition it seamed as if I had more brake feedback. I was never standing on the pedal and I could treat the brake pedal like a throttle because of the increased feedback. At first I was braking too soon into the corners almost too aggressively and was back on the gas before I got to the corners. So I had to back off. I also thought we would need to warm the brakes up before pushing it but that wasn’t necessary. They were 100% right out of the pits. They even brought out inferred guns to mark the temps and I was surprised that after running several hard laps that we only got them up to 450 degrees and that was in the rear the fronts were running cooler by like 50 degrees. Guido, the owner of MovIt explained to me that the rotors probable shed about 150 degrees just wheeling into the pits and they would cool to ambient temps in approx 30 mins after sitting because the Ceramic material was that efficient. <o>
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Now there were 3 of us using the car and the only thing the car got in 3 days was gas and one set of tires. During those 3 days we kept removing the wheels and I was surprised that after the first set of runs and after the initial pad seat-in we had nearly zero pad wear or rotor wear at all. This meant no dust on the wheels. In addition to that after running the car the entire season last year we still have approx 65% of the pad left for this season and again zero rotor wear at all. That right nothing, nada, none. I even mic’d the rotors myself. MovIt told me these rotors would not wear at all but that was really hard to believe, but so far nothing. Time will tell. I apologize if I'm not being that technical as I don’t know the lingo. These are just seat of the pants words.
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So we went back to Cavallino this year and at the super car show in <st1:city u1:st="on"><st1><st1:city w:st="on"><st1>West Palm Beach</st1> </st1:city></st1></st1:city>that Saturday we meet up with the distributor again. They informed me now they can supply us with just rotors and pads for our existing calipers as an upgrade instead of having to run a whole new brake system which is a saving of about 10K per vehicle. So we ordered 2 more kits for the other 360’s and still use the stock Brembo Calipers with the MovIt CER rotors and pads and I ordered a set for the 996 Turbo S. They were approx 17K per kit which is cheaper then just replacing the PCCB’s at a cost of 4.5K each from Porsche which we were having problems with. All direct bolt on, drive and forget systems.
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In conclusion we put our money down and gambled on this system and it has paid for itself 2 fold. First in the shear performance alone, second in the reliability of the system. This is why I had no problem shelling out for the other vehicles. Below are some pics of the installation and some pics of the PCCB rotors we had issues with. If anyone wants to see the vehicles they are at our shop in <st1:city u1:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Toronto</st1:city></st1:city> for now and we are moving them down to <st1:state u1:st="on"><st1><st1:state w:st="on"><st1>Florida</st1> </st1:state></st1></st1:state>this summer and will be starting a driving school using these vehicles. Just send me a PM.
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Sounds good but very expensive...

 

Luddites? LOL. They will never be the "standard". EVER. Cost too much to make and therefore too much to sell. They are also too heat sensitive and are a liability in cold climates. Add to that the fact that cost will outweight 50lbs of weightloss in 99 car makes out of 100 and there isnt much hope for it becoming any standard. Maybe in racing, where they already set the standard for the best brakes. The carbon material itself costs much more than steel before you even get into the manufacturing process. The Carbons undoubtedly last longer but for the cost of one replacement you can get several sets of steels. If someone manages to refine the manufacturing process prior to use advancing to floating auto's then maybe you'll be on to something.

No one here has said that PCCB's can't be the future, but they are not worth the money NOW compared to the aftermarket.

Besides 50lbs is nothing for the 99% of people who'll never touch a track. A floating steel rotor with independant hat can make 50% of those weight savings. That is the next step in evolution. The vulnerability of ceramics to cold weather makes the same thing that is the strength of it is it's weakness if you arent on the track.

By the time they figure out how to keep the heat resistance and lose the vulnerability to cold and reduce the manufacturing and material costs. We'll all be in a prius.

Steel is cheap, strong and easy to replace. Using exotic materials for braking will always have the cost handicap.

 

Fair points all. But the notion of cost, temperature range, etc. are (as you imply) all status items now. Evolution of materials science doesn't occur as quickly as digital technology, but this is an area that ties to the whole 'green' movement - of light and strong substitutes for all types of building and mechanical applications. So it's likely to get leveraged by a wider range of applications than just auto braking.
I was just commenting on the 'not ever' and 'never' and 'useless' and 'foolish' comments that some were making. But again, as of NOW, they are specialty items. That said, the past poster with the Scud's and other cars tells an absolutely amazing story. It seems like the cost of carbon versus steel in those cars is about 2x. Given the price that many owners pay for other upgrades in these cars, it seems quite reasonable.
I do know that the next P-car I purchase will have carbon brakes, even though I'm more likely to order stock and then go with the Movit's as soon as I take delivery. Just seems like a better product.
By the way, on a separate but related front, anyone who is interested in improving the performance of their Porsche should go swap the standard brake lines for braided steel. It's such a simple mod, has such profound improvements in feel and control, and is often overlooked because it's not in the 'cool mod' category.

 

Why is marketing such a bad thing???

Marketing is primarily Product, Price, and Distribution. All of these should be an important factor of any decision regarding brakes. Product is to fit the need of target market. Distribution is very important when you need replacement parts and or support for repairs. Price while a factor is, and should be, the least important part of decision process in the marketing matrix.

I have PCCB because I could get them with my new Porsche. Advantages, for me, were better ride and performance first, less brake dust second, easy of acquisition third, peddle feel forth, greater resistant to fade last.

You pays your money and you makes your choices...

 

Well some of us that are here that do track our cars are more interested in what works than what sells. I'm more interested in results that going back and forth with reps from different places all saying they are the best. Anyone can explain their technology and why it works, but would they tell you if they thought there was a better company for the application you are looking for? Doubt it.

I'll take pit crews from race teams that set up numbers of cars week in and week out with varying kits and results on them any day. Even though some of those will be biased towards what they sell too.

In the end you have to do your research before you buy anything or just deal with what you got.

 

According with the information given by the movit ceramics maker, the poor bite cold it is a thing of the past

 

Correct, as I stated we have not had any cold issues with our kit and I took it around the block when we got back to Toronto last week when it was 14F degrees out.

 

Thanks, and how is the initial bite wet? With the oem pccbs not good at all...

 

It rained for about 15 mins last year while we where at Moroso Motorsports Park for that Cavallino event and I didn't even think twice about the brakes during the short downpour. So they where not affected by the inclement conditions at all. It would have been something I would have noticed because the whole time we slowed down due to the slicks I was being really careful and braking early. The whole time I was considering heading to the pits for the set of rain tire we brought but after a few mins and with the sun beaming on the track it cleared up and we were full throttle again.

As I stated previously we have a 996 TT S and I know that awkward lack of brakes under your foot when it is wet or cold out. These CER's feel just like steels do only with more bite. You know they feel like a brand new set of rotors and pads do for the first 100miles only all the time. It is really hard to imagine, but they live up to the hype. Especially after all the years of promises and promises.

 

Ok! as far as I am concern, looks like the future is here to stay: ceramics.

 

I don't agree with this or the anti-cold performance. My car has performed as expected if not better in terrible weather with summer tires. Granted the car is only out once or twice a month, but its driven and there is no change in the rain, snow or cold with the PCCB's.
IMO, the majority of those saying not to go PCCB track their car and the cost exceeds the benefit if all you do is track. If you do a mix of both you would be hard pressed to find a better "kit" then the stock PCCB's. If you are a street guy that does 1k miles per year does it even matter? Honestly, you're not even driving enough to have a valid opinion.
So, lets just say all of the above work great it just depends on what you plan on doing and how deep your pockets are. As for the which is better? Do a little research. How? Get your tush over to the track and see what the cup guys and die hard trackers are running. If you want a Salesman to convince you he has the better goods, well, just be prepared for a never ending line of BS. Been there, done that (Brembo )