Good luck and have fun.

Here is a brief mention of KW from Rennlist, and the warning against mixing spring and dampener. It does seem that there is something different with KW dampener, because 973 is really a high number that I've only seen mainly in dedicated track cars. Maybe Auto Talent could educate us all.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/997-gt2-gt3-forum/450131-spring-rate-update-2.html
Keep in mind that KW is also doing some unique things with their valving that allow these higher rates with their suspensions. I've tried revalving Bisteins using KW spring rates that I knew worked and it doesn't work anywhere near as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

I'm gonna ressurect this discussion.

I've had the TECHART PASM compatible coilovers installed in my 997.2TT for more than a year. I have messed with everything from installing LCAs, drop links, different sway bar settings, etc. Thanks to this forum, I've had plenty of information to fine tune my car.

Right now, the best setting that I have come to is sway bars set at medium rear and soft front and I drive with the PASM set to soft. PASM hard is unusable on the streets, in my opinion. Makes the car way too jumpy. May be perfect for flat tracks, which I have never tried my 997.2TT on.

My problem is that even with my "ideal" setting, the car still undergoes some hopping and is unable to stay 100% flat on uneven roads, which is all the roads here. This is similar to GT Rus' concern. So, I totally understand his questions as real issues and it really isn't an easy decision to make between the KWs and Bilsteins for the bumpy roads he will have his car on.

Using the stock setup isn't an option. It really is the worst of the options. The car just simply bounces like a sedan through corners making it seem like you're driving an S Class Merc.

In setting up my 930 Turbo with Elephant Racing's Tarret suspension setup I have found that the 930 suspension works "better" than the TECHARTs on my 997. I didn't really believe it, so I had someone else test it and the comment was the same.

Nothing against TECHARTS, but maybe there isn't a setup that's best for all conditions. I still can't make this claim yet, cause all I've tried is stock and TECHARTS.

I'm about to make the move to purchase a set of KW V3s and I would like your opinion. Did what I say above make sense? I think on bumpy uneven windy roads, what seems to work best is a soft suspension then balance it with the right rebound setting. Of course fine tuning will take a while, but do you guys think this is a direction worth pursuing?

Thanks!

 

I was taken for a drive in a 997.1 turbo with PASM and the owner had KW V3's installed in the car. The PASM was disabled in his car and all i can say was that this setup transformed the handling. It wasnt bumpy or anything, it held extremely well in the corners and I was impressed. I have no ideas regarding other coilover brands so just sharing my experience.

 

We sell KW 99.9% of the time & they are happy. The ride is great & the handling is much improved. Best of both worlds. It's on all of my cars & almost all of our customers.

996 GT2 with Variant 3
W211 E55 with Variant 2 (had to get rid of the air suspension)
R56 Mini Cooper S with Variant 1 (just sold the car)

 

can auto talent provide a short video of how to adjust rebound and compression

me and many others would like to try different setups, but the manual that comes with the suspension is really difficult to understand for someone who dont know much about mechanical stuff, im just afraid that if i play with the set up and the clicks i might not know how to put it back to factory default setup

im currently using KW v3 on my 997.1 turbo , and its great , just want to try different setups that might make it better with my driving style

 

Our suggestion to bring it to a shop for an explanation so there is nothing lost in translation.

KW provides videos on YouTube

 

I got the k3 with monoblok 20's I wish I went bilstein... I truly dislike the kw's... it's bumby like hell feels so mechanical... althought I do have a convertible therefore even more unstable... the kw3 are really track use ... I have my 911 in florida with great roads and its just way to ruff... I love that I feel every little curve bump in the road but I just cant relax anymore... I took all the appeal of a turbo as a DD which is probably what some guys want... but I was hoping to get a bit more aggresive for my tight turns while still being able to cruise with the top down on a nice day...

 

Who installed it? I would have a shop with experience with KW double check the settings.

 

Can someone help confirm the springs used in the following suspensions?

(1) TECHART VarioPlus
(2) KW V3
(3) Bilstein B16
(4) Bilstein PSS10

I see online that the Eibachs that come on my TECHARTS are progressive. They don't look progressive to me. But if they are, it may somewhat explain the "bounciness" I'm experiencing.

 

Thank you all. It's too bad there really isn't much information on the different coilover options except via forums. At this stage, I can't even tell the difference between the Bilsteins B16s and the TECHART VarioPlus that I have. Seems the difference is in the springs. Wonder if the difference is significant or negligible.

Not sure if the "bounciness" I feel is something that's road condition related, PASM related, coilover related or spring related.

 

A.
Stock 997.1 Turbo:
Front: 206
Rear: 457 Linear
Stock 997.2 Turbo
Front: 206
Rear: 514 Progressive (342 initial, 514 final)
Bilstein B16 Damptronic
Front: 340 Linear
Rear: 565 Linear
Helper springs 115 front, 145 rear (don't count towards rate)
Techart:
Unknown
KW3:
Front: unknown
Rear: approx. 920, most likely progressive.

But.... as you already know, spring rate along doesn't tell the whole story. The other major determinants are the dampening forces, both bump and rebound.
IMHO at this point, you might want to call Techart and ask them a simple question: Is Techart suspension stiffer than Bilstein, and if so what were changed, spring or damper?
I think that will narrow down the possibilities, as Bilstein nowadays is very much a known entity based on feedback from many users on this forum: stiffer than stock, but not outrageously unless there is something wrong with the installation, or there are other heim joint links in the car, or the roads extremely rough, or driver is a sissy (kidding).

B:
To best of my knowledge, progressive spring actually does the opposite of what you are describing.
Linear spring has one rate. Progressive spring has an initial rate when spring is uncompressed that is soft, and a final rate when spring is more compressed that is stiffer. The soft initial rate absorbs street bumps and make the ride comfortable and less bouncy. At high cornering speed, the springs compress further and now the final stiffer rate comes into play.
But, as mentioned above, dampers also play a major factor; it's not just about the springs.

 

Thanks Cann. Have tried to contact TECHART several times and no reply. Actually, that's part of my reason for wanting to make a change - absolutely no support from TECHART. My front drop links are worn out and need a replacement, yet no support again and I can't source them from anywhere else.

Sissy is a given. But that's a problem that can't be solved.

Totally agree with you on the progressive springs. However, the reason I think progressive springs or maybe it's the PASM doing something is the car seems to be different at slow speeds vs. fast. If it is, problem is I can't tell if it really is better at adjusting to my speed and when the changing point kicks in. Again, this is my reason for thinking KWs - eliminate PASM and hopefully, if the V3s are linear, then total elimination.

And then back to the sissy factor, set it up for fast driving and then it teaches me to drive fast no matter what.

 

^^^
Hi, thanks for keeping the light mood. I did not mean to imply at all that your complaint is sissy in nature! Really I was talking about Bilstein as an example of diagnosing problem, *not* you :-). Since it is used by many and is a known entity from many reviews on this forum, if there is an outrageous complaint about stiffness or whatever, something odd is going on.
Wow Techart - sorry. That is a great company but there have been a few complaints about their support. I *do* suspect that Techart is stiffer, but I think something else is going on. This being a long distant communication with me having no idea what your personal preference is and what exactly your car feels like, the next couple of suggestions I would have are these, IMHO of course:

1. Have you had a professional (like an experienced tuner) drive your car? What does he have to say? Did he confirm my sissy remark about your taste (ha ha kidding again)? He might be in a position to say, yeah this is weird and too stiff, then I would think a lot of your questions will have been answered.

2. Is there anyone around your area that has KW V3 or Bilstein? Possible to either test his car, or if he's not comfortable, let *him* test drive your car? Before you spend so much more $$$, IMHO it is important to compare your car against a known reference and a different opinion.

3. What other components are in your car? Tire - normal pressure? Sway bar? What settings? Links with heim joints like drop links, upper control arms (dog bones), etc.? If you do have them, I would consider take them down before switching, a last resort with result not exactly clear. All these other components are fantastic for car dynamics but do contribute to the Noise/Vibration/Harshness of the system. Some *very* significantly.

 

Of course! I know you're kidding and joking around is part of the enjoyment of car ownership. All in good fun.

To answer your questions:

1. I've had several professionals try out my car. Same comment as me. The car drives very well. But, if you're picky, a little more fine tuning could make it better.

2. I've tried a car with Bilstein and a car with KW. Hard to say cause their overall set up is very different from mine. Bilstein really feels similar to mine.

3. Components. Similar to yours. Basically, you've been the inspiration to my suspension mods. RSS LCAs, Rear Links (Dog Bones), Rear Toe Steer, Front Toe / Bump Steer, H&R Sways, TECHART VarioPlus coilovers, Tarett Drop Links. Even the set up is similar:
Front Camber -1°27', Front Caster 8°22', Front Toe 0°.
Rear Camber -1°41', Rear Toe 0°12'
Sways Rear Medium / Front Soft
I'm running P Zero Torfeo.

I know that the B16s have worked well for many of you in the US. But your roads conditions are definitely way different from the roads here. I have lived in the US and you guys are so lucky compared with us here! Many of my friends have gotten suspension for different cars that have been proven to work in the US only to be too jumpy for the roads here.

Of course, it really is very difficult to talk about all this online in writing when there are so many variables and so many things are relative to how each driver feels. I'm not hoping to get a clear cut answer as to which is better for me (I know I won't), I just wanna get a better feel and understanding to make a more "informed" decision as to whether it is "possible" to improve on my already good suspension system.

As you had mentioned before too for yourself, this too has been a great learning experience for me. I installed every component independently, so I really have learned a lot as to what each part does and feel. Of course, you guys and many vendors in the US have been a great resource. Maybe that's why I'm so picky now. And maybe getting the KWs won't be that bad an idea too - learn a little more. Worst case, go back to the TECHARTS, which is an excellent set up already for the street.

The important point is, my set up is near perfect for the streets (which is where I use my car). Definitely more than acceptable. I'm just a perfectionist who wants to push for that 1% improvement. Only thing stopping me is the question of whether spending US$10k will improve my 90%+ setting closer to 100% or it'll just be a waste of my time and money.

Long post, but thank you Cann and thank you all for reading and bearing with me. You have all been a huge help so far.

 

Hi, my very humble opinions:
1. Without a doubt, assuming as you mentioned road condition is a problem, I think it's a good idea to pull one by one all the above components with metal bushings and heim joints from your car and revert to stock links.
I've erased the brand names so no one gets upset at me, and I love the metallic joints because they give such a sense of precision, but no matter what vendors claim, every single one of them adds some degree of noise, vibration, harshness to the suspension. You actually have not just a few, but *a lot* of other stuffs in your car (in comparison I only have rear drop link and sway bar, that's it!), and together I have no doubt that the stiffness effect adds up.

2. Keep in mind that when Techart designs the coilover you are using, it is very likely meant to be used with stock links and components. By adding these other components, essentially you are changing the parameters that the coilover is designed for, which is ok, except that then problems, like "jumpiness/stiffness" may result. I've mentioned "the other stuffs" as one of the major reasons suspension mod could be problematic; as users add "other stuffs" they unknowingly have asked the coilovers to do things that they were never designed for in the first place, for example stiff sway bar and such severe lowering that the 3D geometric relationship of the links change.

3. Not for DaBrat of course, but for others new to suspension mod: Because of #2 above, when asked I always tell fellow Porsche friends: add one component at a time, so that if something goes wrong you know who is causing what. In other words, first coilover or springs, then sway, then blah blah blah. Add components slowly so that if something goes wrong, you know where the issue comes from. The approach should always be systematic and progressive: first the spring, then others, etc.

4. Does doing 1 above guarantee the solution, and that you won't be happier with KW? I do NOT know. I do know that if road bumpiness and harshness is a problem, you'll have the same problem whether it's KW or Techart and any tuner worth his salt should tell you to pull those metallic joint from your car, or you might as well fire him. (Kidding.) Remember though as you gain in comfort, you *will* lose in handling precision; the law of physics and there is no way around it.