07 TT or GT3 RS
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When what things are considered please?
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Ya' got me there. I was speaking to some private equity guy recently, who had a WRX or Evo (whatever) as a DD, and realized that showing up for board of director meetings in the thing was a bit, um, tacky.
But I'm pretty sure you can buy at GTx or RS in something other than 'pumpkin' or 'kermit'.
But I'm pretty sure you can buy at GTx or RS in something other than 'pumpkin' or 'kermit'.
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Thoughtful as usual. I really like the back and forth with you Can.
Interesting point you make, and one I had not considered. i.e. since I get to occasionally drive (I'm so OCD it is mostly a garage queen) one of the faster cars in the world, I get the speed/hp/torque/viscerata satisfaction out of my system. Not sure that is a driving point. But on that line of thinking, what I WILL say is that, since owning the FGT I am much more willing to wring the 997 out. I treated it with kid gloves until I had something even scarier and more valuable to covet. Perhaps a sad personal commentary to share with a wide audience, but true nonetheless.
BTW, just to be clear, it's not at all the TT of the TT that puts me off. That joyous faster as you go faster feel is exhilerating a positive, and makes the driving experience more complex, which is all good to me. It's the AWD (if that wasn't clear from prior rants) and the further piling on of computer-driven safety-ware as well as the incremental weight to make it all work that takes the TT down a notch for me. If they built a TT like the 'S', RWD and no more, I'm sure I'd buy one and love it. And then the GT2 would be the extreme version of it, just like the GT3 is the extreme version of the 'S'.
But I'll redouble my point about sprint karts. Not sure if you've ever sampled them, but they totally affect your way of thinking, driving and car selection.
By the way, I've not driven a Lotus. I told myself that I would never buy an english car (more flames again no doubt). And I'm trying to stick to it. I suspect though, that if I didn't own the FGT, it might be such a car.
Interesting point you make, and one I had not considered. i.e. since I get to occasionally drive (I'm so OCD it is mostly a garage queen) one of the faster cars in the world, I get the speed/hp/torque/viscerata satisfaction out of my system. Not sure that is a driving point. But on that line of thinking, what I WILL say is that, since owning the FGT I am much more willing to wring the 997 out. I treated it with kid gloves until I had something even scarier and more valuable to covet. Perhaps a sad personal commentary to share with a wide audience, but true nonetheless.
BTW, just to be clear, it's not at all the TT of the TT that puts me off. That joyous faster as you go faster feel is exhilerating a positive, and makes the driving experience more complex, which is all good to me. It's the AWD (if that wasn't clear from prior rants) and the further piling on of computer-driven safety-ware as well as the incremental weight to make it all work that takes the TT down a notch for me. If they built a TT like the 'S', RWD and no more, I'm sure I'd buy one and love it. And then the GT2 would be the extreme version of it, just like the GT3 is the extreme version of the 'S'.
But I'll redouble my point about sprint karts. Not sure if you've ever sampled them, but they totally affect your way of thinking, driving and car selection.
By the way, I've not driven a Lotus. I told myself that I would never buy an english car (more flames again no doubt). And I'm trying to stick to it. I suspect though, that if I didn't own the FGT, it might be such a car.
Hello Verde,
We have extremely similar viewpoints, more alike than different. I was even going to mention the Lotus as an example of the GT3 not being as "pure" and light as some competitors. LOL.
I think an important point is that your preference might be influenced by the fact that you ALREADY have a tremendously fast car that is supercharged, so your second car very rightly should have a NA engine for which power is not of primary concern. I would do exactly the same were I to add a second Porsche.
There is no question that the GT3 is one of the best track cars in the world, but for someone who only has one car, my opinion is that it is not necessarily the perfect choice. I would miss the torque terribly if that were my only car. Somewhere along the line the car has gotten way too heavy for 298 lb ft of torque.
As for chassis, guys on the GT3 forum also put on Motons and change that progressive spring, so the stock GT3 is far from THE pure example, but is just a point in a continium that links a Lexus at one end and an open wheel racer at the other. The GT3 does well when compared against a daily driver (it'd better!), but in non-Porsche circle, it is far from being considered the best sports car. Even in Porsche circle, reading between the lines, 911 cup car guys think the GT3 is just child's play.
I agree about the inherently better mid-engine chassis of the Cayman. It's a testament to Porsche Motorsports' greatness that the 911 continues to win GT2 class.
Cheers.
We have extremely similar viewpoints, more alike than different. I was even going to mention the Lotus as an example of the GT3 not being as "pure" and light as some competitors. LOL.
I think an important point is that your preference might be influenced by the fact that you ALREADY have a tremendously fast car that is supercharged, so your second car very rightly should have a NA engine for which power is not of primary concern. I would do exactly the same were I to add a second Porsche.
There is no question that the GT3 is one of the best track cars in the world, but for someone who only has one car, my opinion is that it is not necessarily the perfect choice. I would miss the torque terribly if that were my only car. Somewhere along the line the car has gotten way too heavy for 298 lb ft of torque.
As for chassis, guys on the GT3 forum also put on Motons and change that progressive spring, so the stock GT3 is far from THE pure example, but is just a point in a continium that links a Lexus at one end and an open wheel racer at the other. The GT3 does well when compared against a daily driver (it'd better!), but in non-Porsche circle, it is far from being considered the best sports car. Even in Porsche circle, reading between the lines, 911 cup car guys think the GT3 is just child's play.
I agree about the inherently better mid-engine chassis of the Cayman. It's a testament to Porsche Motorsports' greatness that the 911 continues to win GT2 class.
Cheers.
Last edited by Verde; Feb 15, 2009 at 01:03 PM.
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Hah, thanks but no thanks. My wife frequently reminds me that we have (at least) one car too many for the size of our house/driveway/garage. Nothing I would trade for it. And then there's that economy thing...
GL
GL
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Verde, I still kart now, but not competitive anymore. I understand you, I have a chassis that I cannot replicate the 'feel' of the old chassis with the new one. I tend to beat the old chassis alot harder, didn't mind abusing it. Am guessing your C2s would be my 'old chassis' and the TT would be the 'new chassis'.
... only if my 'old chassis' have a better engine-not so feasible with the C2s tho.
... only if my 'old chassis' have a better engine-not so feasible with the C2s tho.
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Wish I still stayed involved. There are places around here where I could take a 'class' and borrow some gear on a track. That would be a lot of fun.
Verde, I still kart now, but not competitive anymore. I understand you, I have a chassis that I cannot replicate the 'feel' of the old chassis with the new one. I tend to beat the old chassis alot harder, didn't mind abusing it. Am guessing your C2s would be my 'old chassis' and the TT would be the 'new chassis'.
... only if my 'old chassis' have a better engine-not so feasible with the C2s tho.
... only if my 'old chassis' have a better engine-not so feasible with the C2s tho.
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A turbo is a super car for all days, all weather and all roads. A Gt3 is a super car on sunny days track and road. If you don’t drive in bad weather obviously that will not be a deciding factor. Test driving is going to be your best option because it’s how you like the car, not anyone else. Just look at the capabilities of each and that should help you decide. With all the driver aids even a sub par driver can push the capabilities of a rwd 911 now without destroying the car or killing themselves. A rwd is the driving purists choice for a track machine. Ask yourself; do you like late braking and diving in to the turn fighting the rear end just to carry that bit more of speed? Or do you like pulling away on the straights?
+1 for the one you want
+1 for the one you want
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its not of the matter of how fast u can go in a straight line, its how fast u can go around a bend. plus i feel a true sports car has to be RWD. yes u can make a bunch of power out of the turbo but its overweight, that means lot more of a push around the bend. if u dont feel the power of a RS is not enough......well, TURBO IT. small turbo putting 500whp....need i say more?
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... I really like the back and forth with you Can.
...It's the AWD (if that wasn't clear from prior rants) and the further piling on of computer-driven safety-ware as well as the incremental weight to make it all work that takes the TT down a notch for me. If they built a TT like the 'S', RWD and no more, I'm sure I'd buy one and love it.
...It's the AWD (if that wasn't clear from prior rants) and the further piling on of computer-driven safety-ware as well as the incremental weight to make it all work that takes the TT down a notch for me. If they built a TT like the 'S', RWD and no more, I'm sure I'd buy one and love it.
You've driven the Lambo Gallardo right? That car, together with your Ford GT, have the best chassis dynamics and handling that I've ever experienced in a car. (And not just me, but any number of reputable reviewers like me
.) IMO, better than even the Porsche GT2 that I love. What about Audi R8?
And that Nissan GTR? Exploding gear box, heavy, ugly than hell, and I hate the dishonest way they advertise that 7:29, but what about its handling? Fairly amazing for a 3839 lbs car don't you think?
You would agree, the above 3 are considered by many to be among the very best in their class, handling wise? (In the case of the Gallardo LP560-4, I think the best period.) If so, then AWD seems to do pretty well in a sports car, no?
I don't like the added weight of the AWD system, that much I agree. I too wish the Turbo could be like the GT2, but I do not think the blame could be squarely and solely placed on the fact that it's AWD.
BTW, anyone here could describe to me exactly how an AWD system's behavior in corners make us amateurs slower? Do you think it oversteers, understeers, or what? If so on entry, on exit?
Last edited by cannga; Feb 16, 2009 at 12:29 AM.
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Awd vs. rwd in corners isn’t about what’s faster, it’s about what feels safer through the steering wheel and allows you to push the car that bit extra. A turbo can be just as fast in the corners as the gt3, but how you drive it is far more important. I’m surprised no one has recommended just upgrading your current car and taking some driving skills classes while you make up your mind! Maybe even wait for the new gt3? Although I know how it is when you just want something different.
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My long lost brother!!
Your comments are interesting though. And sounds like I don't have the range of test drives that you've had.
I will say that when I took a Gallardo for a hard ride (but pre- LP560-4), I got out and said to the first person I saw, 'that was strange'. Reason was that with all it's power, and perhaps less of the electronics that are in the tt, the chassis felt like it was twisting or torque steering on very hard throttle in first and second. Maybe I'm just allergic to AWD
I will say that if I had the $$'s, and I had one supercar in that range to buy, it likely would be the new LP560-4 though. It is just stunningly beautiful. And the F430 may have the screaming engine, but the Gallardo V10 sounds like hell itself has been released on mankind. I could wind it up all day. And to be fair, it does stick like crazy, it might just be that with more driving that 'odd' feeling would disappear.
I've not driven the R8 nor the GTR. It is funny that the blush is seeminly falling from the R8 rose. Apparently too gentle or something. But it clearly is a hot car. And the GTR, as you note, despite the tasteless action of Nissan, seems like it defies physics. I just watched Tanner Foust review the car on Speed and he couldn't say enough. Of course, he then stepped in to another on my personal list, the Ultima CanAm. I've been to the factory and hope to build one.
So, if you're doing a diplomatic build to prove to me how remarkable AWD is - as evidenced by the latest round of successful great or super cars, no mas, no mas. Clearly it's the direction for mankind.
And, as evidenced by my passion for the Gallardo, I may just cave some day, but for now, I'll limp along with the 'S' and FGT. I'm glad we can agree to (ever so slightly) disagree.
BTW, I've been meaning to tell you that your car, and your photos of same are just outstanding.
Your comments are interesting though. And sounds like I don't have the range of test drives that you've had.
I will say that when I took a Gallardo for a hard ride (but pre- LP560-4), I got out and said to the first person I saw, 'that was strange'. Reason was that with all it's power, and perhaps less of the electronics that are in the tt, the chassis felt like it was twisting or torque steering on very hard throttle in first and second. Maybe I'm just allergic to AWD
I will say that if I had the $$'s, and I had one supercar in that range to buy, it likely would be the new LP560-4 though. It is just stunningly beautiful. And the F430 may have the screaming engine, but the Gallardo V10 sounds like hell itself has been released on mankind. I could wind it up all day. And to be fair, it does stick like crazy, it might just be that with more driving that 'odd' feeling would disappear.
I've not driven the R8 nor the GTR. It is funny that the blush is seeminly falling from the R8 rose. Apparently too gentle or something. But it clearly is a hot car. And the GTR, as you note, despite the tasteless action of Nissan, seems like it defies physics. I just watched Tanner Foust review the car on Speed and he couldn't say enough. Of course, he then stepped in to another on my personal list, the Ultima CanAm. I've been to the factory and hope to build one.
So, if you're doing a diplomatic build to prove to me how remarkable AWD is - as evidenced by the latest round of successful great or super cars, no mas, no mas. Clearly it's the direction for mankind.
And, as evidenced by my passion for the Gallardo, I may just cave some day, but for now, I'll limp along with the 'S' and FGT. I'm glad we can agree to (ever so slightly) disagree.
BTW, I've been meaning to tell you that your car, and your photos of same are just outstanding.
Likewise Verde. As I've mentioned, we think like twins.
You've driven the Lambo Gallardo right? That car, together with your Ford GT, have the best chassis dynamics and handling that I've ever experienced in a car. (And not just me, but any number of reputable reviewers like me.) IMO, better than even the Porsche GT2 that I love.
What about Audi R8?
And that Nissan GTR? Exploding gear box, heavy, ugly than hell, and I hate the dishonest way they advertise that 7:29, but what about its handling? Fairly amazing for a 3839 lbs car don't you think?
You would agree, the above 3 are considered by many to be among the very best in their class, handling wise? (In the case of the Gallardo LP560-4, I think the best period.) If so, then AWD seems to do pretty well in a sports car, no?
I don't like the added weight of the AWD system, that much I agree. I too wish the Turbo could be like the GT2, but I do not think the blame could be squarely and solely placed on the fact that it's AWD.
BTW, anyone here could describe to me exactly how an AWD system's behavior in corners make us amateurs slower? Do you think it oversteers, understeers, or what? If so on entry, on exit?
You've driven the Lambo Gallardo right? That car, together with your Ford GT, have the best chassis dynamics and handling that I've ever experienced in a car. (And not just me, but any number of reputable reviewers like me
.) IMO, better than even the Porsche GT2 that I love. What about Audi R8?
And that Nissan GTR? Exploding gear box, heavy, ugly than hell, and I hate the dishonest way they advertise that 7:29, but what about its handling? Fairly amazing for a 3839 lbs car don't you think?
You would agree, the above 3 are considered by many to be among the very best in their class, handling wise? (In the case of the Gallardo LP560-4, I think the best period.) If so, then AWD seems to do pretty well in a sports car, no?
I don't like the added weight of the AWD system, that much I agree. I too wish the Turbo could be like the GT2, but I do not think the blame could be squarely and solely placed on the fact that it's AWD.
BTW, anyone here could describe to me exactly how an AWD system's behavior in corners make us amateurs slower? Do you think it oversteers, understeers, or what? If so on entry, on exit?
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19000, your points are not lost on me. I strongly suspect that most people can get around a track faster with modern AWD sports cars than RWD. Only the most talented drivers, and I am absolutely not one of them, can get around a track more quickly and with adequate margins of error, with RWD.
Now Cannga is wearing me down to the point where I could accept that with rules changes allowing AWD in key racing classes, those cars might be faster too.
OTOH, there's some expression about the joy of driving 'a slow car quickly'. The edge of a less capable car comes up at lower speeds and can give the street driver more joy. I've cited that with respect to my Ford GT. It is soooo capable that anything I do on the streets and highways is just 'transportation'. I could never, or would never, approach it's limits on the streets, and thus though thrilled by the power, never get the satisfaction of being near the edge in handling the car. Modern AWD's might be like that.
Now Cannga is wearing me down to the point where I could accept that with rules changes allowing AWD in key racing classes, those cars might be faster too.
OTOH, there's some expression about the joy of driving 'a slow car quickly'. The edge of a less capable car comes up at lower speeds and can give the street driver more joy. I've cited that with respect to my Ford GT. It is soooo capable that anything I do on the streets and highways is just 'transportation'. I could never, or would never, approach it's limits on the streets, and thus though thrilled by the power, never get the satisfaction of being near the edge in handling the car. Modern AWD's might be like that.
Awd vs. rwd in corners isn’t about what’s faster, it’s about what feels safer through the steering wheel and allows you to push the car that bit extra. A turbo can be just as fast in the corners as the gt3, but how you drive it is far more important. I’m surprised no one has recommended just upgrading your current car and taking some driving skills classes while you make up your mind! Maybe even wait for the new gt3? Although I know how it is when you just want something different.
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Please clarify. Are you actually suggesting that a RWD car feels "SAFER through the steering wheel" than an AWD car?
How is this so please when the AWD car actually has more front tire grip? I mean is this accepted description/observation of AWD's behavior in corners?
Isn't it true, **generally**, that an AWD car has MORE neutral steering tendency?
How is this so please when the AWD car actually has more front tire grip? I mean is this accepted description/observation of AWD's behavior in corners?
Isn't it true, **generally**, that an AWD car has MORE neutral steering tendency?
Last edited by cannga; Feb 16, 2009 at 11:26 AM.
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