Proper live one. ^^^^^^^ Enjoy your very good car sorry space rocket Nick. Have you ever thought about anger management classes?

 

And just as an aside its Tom who's been claiming 815, 845 and 885 whp for his VTG based turbos/GT2 of which there are 150 in existence in varying degrees of tune and none of them have ever run 0-300kph.

Yet according to Nick the onus of facilitating an airfield hence proving or disproving these at best optimistic hp claims lies in the lap of me and or anyone else but the guys who are making these claims lol. That seems very logical indeed. What a very reasoned debate. Nick you need to listen to yourself. Put up or shut up? I'm sure I read that somewhere....cant think where...No.

 

Just because Nick is a client does not in any way mean he represents, or is a representative of, our company. Be sure to understand the difference. He's a customer that came to us with a goal to build a car, and we delivered more then what he wanted.

And I also never claimed that ALL of our VTG kits produce the same power as the select few that we've built to this level. In fact, most do not. It's only the cars that have built engines where we push boost to higher levels and use the 68mm VTG's to their full potential. You're arguments are now turning a bit childish, you're mixing up the facts, and not accurately repeating the information that I've pretty clearly given you. I've done nothing but try to answer your questions, and handled myself respectfully towards each of you that have now accused me of lying. If that's the direction this thread is headed, then I'm going to respectfully bow out.

I've already explained why we have not provided the data that only you 3 have now decided is the "new benchmark" for performance. 185mph is an absolutely ridiculous speed for any car that is not properly prepped (even on an airstrip) and I can almost guarantee that during an event like that is the ONLY time you will EVER hit that kind of speed and for a few seconds at most. So what makes that test any more valid then the test results we have already provided??? That being said, if the opportunity arises for us to have the car available during an event where we can reach that speed, I will absolutely HAPPILY provide the 0-300kph test you are asking for, along with a FULL data log of the run. I promise you that. But as of right now, it's not going to happen, sorry.

 

Not true.

You fail to see the logic.

Champion have proved to me that the kits make the power.

You say they do not. Yet you have not provided any evidence contrary. The only thing you provide is anecdotal stories of how YOUR kits do not make power. Kits built and owned by those whose judgement I question much in the same manner as you do with Champion- the only difference is I actually provided reasons why they are not valid sources, and for that you feel the need to attack me.

I have yet to mention how much power my car makes, and that you can prove it either meets your requirements or not based on the criteria you laid out.

You want proof. I don't need it. I am satisfied with what I have.

So if you want data YOUR WAY, YOU need to get it.

I already offered the use of my car. That is a $1/4M asset I have put on the line, one that I quite like and don't offer up regularly. If you cannot come up with the costs associated with this need of yours, I can only surmise that you have an ax to grind with Champion.

So put up or shut up.

 

xbox_fan- I'm sorry tone doesn't come across well when written. Some more emoticons would help.

I'm not in the habit of breaking speed limits to the point of tripling it or beyond. I have hit over 175 (178mph GPS indicated via Solo DL and Escort 9500, and over 180mph indicated on speedo) at Road America going UP the front straight (on a hill)- Road America is the longest track I drive in a HPDE, and the longest I have raced on in karts where I've gone over 115mph on the back straight into T5. That is without using the highest power tune- the max is, honestly, quite violent.

The only real issue these guys have is, how do they make their cars work under high load? My car works fine under the loads it sees.

There are many ways to skin a cat. These guys just can't seem to do it right, so they subversively attack others on what they cannot themselves do.

 

Hi Tom,

I have not called you a liar merely that the headline figures you're referring to seem on the face of it seem over optimistic based on dyno readings. To be clear you've sold 150 sets of 68 mm VTG turbos to satisfied customer in "VARYING DEGREES OF TUNE" as per my earlier post. I did not imply they were all running 800 +whp but lets look at your 885 whp claim. This would be a VTG package with over 1000bhp at the crank? A VTG package with 1000 bhp at the crank? Is this correct?

The nearest anyone else has got to this with VTGS is 700bhp at the crank and that car had issue with reliability on the VTGS and is now running conventional turbos. Surely you can understand my sceptiscm?

Add to this every tuner I've spoken to in Europe i.e. FVD, RS Tuning, Ruf, Cargraphic and 9e have said that if I want above the 650bhp at the crank to drop the VTGS and go conventional turbos due to reliability. Even Emre at ES motors recommends the ES 850 R kit if you want proper reliable power around 800bhp which also has conventional turbos.

I look forward to one of your customer cars running the Texas mile or something similar. I was surprised none of your 150 satisfied customers have not run in events like this over the last 9 years thats all. If I've caused offence pls accept my sincerest apology. There was certainly no offence intended.

Best wishes,

Imi

 

Nick you sound like a very angry little man. Seriously go get some therapy or take up martial arts or cage fighting. You'd be good at it...I honestly couldn't give a flying **** how fast your car is or how much your asset is worth lol. Not all of can be as affluent and super successful as the mighty Nick W who has a $250k asset. Wow can I maybe be like you when I'm grown up or just hang out with you lol?!

There's a charity website called justgiving.com

I suggest if you can't afford entering an event like the Texas Mile or similar start a charity donation page on justgiving.com and see how many donations you get. You can ask for donations for your fuel too as everyone will want to help you no doubt. You'll be running the Texas mile in no time.

Hmmm, "Put up or shut up". I'm sure i read that pesky phrase somewhere before?

 

My 20 cents:
In 2010 I was running the 66mm VTGs kit from FVD with headers, 2,5' catless full exhaust, 997.2s ICs and a large Y-pipe.
I finally asked Todd K to tune my engine as I was disapointed with the power/performances achieved with the FVD tune.
We tryed with TK at least 15 tunes that I all logged and VBoxed from 100 to 300kph (I hate launching).
Yes the best 100-300 was not achieved with the highest boost, yes the best 60-130 was achieved with the highest boost.
-1,40 peak and 1,25/28Bar above 5000rpm gaved 677crankHp/900Nm on a Superflow dyno.
-1,6Bar up to redline gaved 641crankHp/950Nm, same setup, same day, same dyno.
Important detail: all that with pumpgas.

In 2012 I was hesitating between the CMS68s and A30s and never found any tangible evidences of the 68´s long pulls performances (if a 15-20' WOT is a long pull), so stayed with TK and went with conventionnal turbos.
My car is finally as fast as I wanted, it could beeing easier if achievable with the 68's, but I still ignore it now in 2015...

Yes I believe a long pull test could open the European market to the 68's.

 

Imi, I appreciate you clarifying. I know sometimes it's a little difficult to detect the "tone" of posts on here.

The 885whp car is a GT2, which makes that power when run on it's most aggressive tune and race gas. That number was achieved repeatedly on our DynoJet. I'm not sure what reverse calculation is the norm these days, but I'm guessing that would put it somewhere around 1000bhp.

700bhp at the crank? I'm pretty sure that it's been conventionally known on here that people gone higher then that with standard upgraded VTG's in the OEM housings on a regular basis, even different tuners. EVOMS, AWE, Protomotive...all have a VTG package that will reach well over 700bhp. You also have to keep in mind that our VTG's are not like anyone else's. The larger compressor housing and 68mm wheel make a HUGE difference. In fact, when flow testing our 68mm during the design process, Tial rated each turbo at a max output of just over 500hp each.

Lastly, not to knock any of those European tuners, but I find it strange that they would cite reliability as a reason to go with traditional turbos over VTG's. VTG's are a direct bolt on, require no modification to the car, and offer full ECU control over boost. Traditional turbos require, cutting oil and cooling lines to the turbos, relocating the intake, and external boost control. Sure, those types of packages can be reliable when done properly, but I really don't see how they can possibly be more reliable then a VTG package. Emre, for one, has sold a few of our 68mm VTG packages...maybe he can chime in with his thoughts.

 

Thats interesting. I raced one of Emre's customer cars at VMAX a few months ago with 68mm VTG turbos (stock engine) a few months ago. It was pretty close. I'd say with 68mm VTG turbos and Emre's tune that car was 0-300kph 25-26 secs but as its a GT2 it was struggling for traction on a wet day and is of course not as aerodynamic as a 997 turbo. That customer of Emre (Amir) has subsequently upgraded to Emre's ES 850 R kit and I promise its now much much quicker than it was before (still on a stock engine). It crept away from me top end before but now just walks away fast.

There's absolutely no agenda. I do not know you guys and have heard nothing but good things about your outfit so if there is a VTG solution which can make 885whp without reliability issue thats fabulous and we'd all like to hear more about it. Is there build thread? When I say reliability issues I was referring to RS Tuning's monster VTG car which they could not get to more than 730 PS and even then it kept on having reliability issues when running hard.

Here's a vid since the GT2 has been upgraded and there was not much in it when he was running 68mm VTGs. The car on the left is the GT2 I raced when it had your turbos I guess. The car on the right in the vid is virtually exactly the same as mine with GT2 hybrid turbos apart from he has no cats. The car in the middle is a built 3.8 FVD car with 66mm VTGS. Look at the way Emre's ES 850 R leaves the other cars standing!

 

That's pretty understandable. When we tune a car with a stock engine on the 68mm VTG's we normally restrict the power to about 650whp, at about 22psi boost. The built engine cars are running about 27-28psi. Beyond 28psi, the 68mm VTG's start to lose efficiency VERY quickly, so we don't go beyond that. Don't get me wrong, I know that Emre's ES850 kit will definitely be faster, especially in the top end, because it's using a larger turbo. With GT turbos you can run much higher HP on a stock engine because you don't have the extremely fast onset of torque at lower rpm's, which is what could damage the motor. That's why you typically see those cars having 880+whp but torque still down in the high 500 to mid 600 range.

There are a few build threads of yellow GT2 (the one in question) but they're scattered all over the place. Here is a link to a gallery with a few 100 pictures that we documented throughout the life of the project, as well as some dyno sheets during the various stages of tune. I'll have to add the dyno sheet of the highest power run, as that was done recently and I haven't added it to the gallery yet. As you can see, this was a VERY extensive build.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/champi...7626127858868/

 

Yes this makes sense.

On the RS Tuning car after they fitted special cylinder heads and tried to get more power at the top end it hit the wall at about 750PS. It was back pressure in the exhaust manifold which RS Tuning measured as being far too high (I think it was 3 bar from memory) this back pressure meant a lot of heat and meant the turbos could not spin any harder. I'm pretty sure all VTGS inc Champion 68mm would have the same issues beyond 750PS since all VTGS are using the same hot side. Hence my sceptic attitude to the 885whp build and your yellow car will not face these problems with back pressure unless you're running the car hard all the way to VMAX repeatedly. Perhaps you have overcome and found a solution for this issue but if you've not run the car 0-300kph you wouldn't experience the reliability problems I was referring to.

So "reliability" means having the stated hp at peak power at top speed not a dynojet 8 second run

 

Amazing build Tom - just had a quick peak at the pics. Do let us know how she gets on if ever run all the way 0-300kph a few times.

 

I agree that a dyno run isn't telling all, how your engine is behaving under real load i.e in higher gears under longer time us what matters. That's why logging your car under those circumstances is vital.

Havent seen a single 4th gear pull from a giac 68mm car, but would love to

 

Can you give me an example of the real world driving conditions that would cause you to be at such a high speed for such a prolonged period of time? Besides at some type of airstrip event? Just curious...

You are suggesting that because our HP figures were measured on a dyno they are somehow invalid in comparison to your "real" load and that's simply an unfair assumption. The majority of EVERY car in the world drives between 60 and 130-140mph even on a endurance event like a road course DE. Our kits perform perfectly under those conditions. So does that make them any better or worse? Are those fantastic results invalidated because we haven't show a 0-300kph? It's an apples to oranges comparison.