Go Back  6SpeedOnline - Porsche Forum and Luxury Car Resource > Porsche (Present) > 997 Turbo / GT2
Reload this Page >

Custom tuning w/ By Design - lots of power - need new clutch

Notices
997 Turbo / GT2 2006Ė2012 Turbo discussion on the 997 model Porsche 911 Twin Turbo.

Custom tuning w/ By Design - lots of power - need new clutch

 
  #151  
Old 07-26-2018, 10:09 AM
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: GTA, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,477
Rep Power: 222
The Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond repute
I thought friction was related to cross sectional area AND distance. The tips may be the limiting factor for flow but since they are short compared to the entire exhaust I didn't think it would turn a 80mm exhaust into a 60mm effective exhaust. But what do I know, lol.
 
  #152  
Old 07-26-2018, 10:30 AM
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Connectiuct
Posts: 273
Rep Power: 37
08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Jeff Kay View Post
To someone like myself thatís just doing a tune/exhaust and MAYBE Ipd stuff and coolers of course a tune. Is something like EP 2 a good option or too opened up. ?
does the tts WANT that restriction ?

Am I gaining somewhere and losing power other places in the powerband?

i believe thatís why Stef shaves out the stick tips so that isnít the restrictive part
I would consult with Stef at Europipe on the best unit for your needs

My personal opinion is on the stock turbo the EP 1 is the best combination of performance and lack of drone

my 750 whp on the EP 1 shows is clearly is capable of making huge power
 
  #153  
Old 07-26-2018, 10:39 AM
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Connectiuct
Posts: 273
Rep Power: 37
08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post
I'm somewhat puzzled that the aftermarket exhaust becomes the limiting factor when the backpressure from the turbos themselves are the "weak link". If the restriction point is the turbo then why does the exhaust size have so much effect? I understand that you always want to have low resistance after the turbo but if the turbo is the bottleneck then I'm still a little puzzled, lol. C'mon Maestro - explain!
the back pressure from the tubo is fixed. That can not be changed unless you modify the turbo itself Lets assume 50 psi back pressure at 22 psi of boost on E85 as a rough estimate.

my point if you add an exhuast on the tail end that adds say another 6 psi peak additionsl back pressure on top of what you have before the turbine that is only going to make matters worse

Obviously to the extent that you can free up exhuast flow after the turbo that will help the situation

then perhaps you can lower the boost target one psi and make up the power with timing and fuel adjustments

I will report more as my story unfolds
 
  #154  
Old 07-26-2018, 10:40 AM
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: GTA, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,477
Rep Power: 222
The Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond repute
Gotcha...so restriction is additive rather than bottleneck
 
  #155  
Old 07-26-2018, 10:42 AM
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Connectiuct
Posts: 273
Rep Power: 37
08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post
exactly...you can't get there because the vanes have to be clamped down in order to get the higher boost pressure. So effectively the turbine becomes the limiting factor, lol
In reality the stock rods are the liniting factor as VTG turbo cars are more than capable to make enough power to exceed the limits of the stock rods

a turbo charged car is like a giant air pump - period
 
  #156  
Old 07-26-2018, 06:22 PM
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Connectiuct
Posts: 273
Rep Power: 37
08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post
Gotcha...so restriction is additive rather than bottleneck
Every sharp bend; every neck down, every joint that is not totally smooth all creates friction and turbulence

Obviously a rear engine car creates a significant issue when designing an exhaust system as the direction of flow is being re-directed and changed several times in a very tight area.

Best book I ever read "Maximum Boost" it is like my bible and was my text book when I used to teach a course on tuning ecus back in the day - you have to know the basic foundation before you can master the advanced concepts of course most of this stuff was worked out years and years ago reaching its pinnacle during WWII with the race to win the war in the skys with the fastest and most powerful planes. There is nothing new about any of these concepts, only thing that is new is the wider distribution of E85 at the pump
 

Last edited by 08957; 07-26-2018 at 08:16 PM.
  #157  
Old 07-27-2018, 12:21 AM
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Germany
Posts: 436
Rep Power: 54
GT996 has a reputation beyond reputeGT996 has a reputation beyond reputeGT996 has a reputation beyond reputeGT996 has a reputation beyond reputeGT996 has a reputation beyond reputeGT996 has a reputation beyond reputeGT996 has a reputation beyond reputeGT996 has a reputation beyond reputeGT996 has a reputation beyond reputeGT996 has a reputation beyond reputeGT996 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post
Todd had explained years ago that in order to generate the higher boost on the vtgs the vanes had to be clamped down fairly tightly which increased heat/backpressure in a big way. I know that you can hold 23psi all the way to 7k rpm but has anyone shown that you actually make any more power above 6k rpm with higher boost on vtgs????
You actually can push them, but as has been mentioned already, backpressure is your enemy #1. As you can see in the following pic, maximum hp can be held like a plateau for a long time. The last 500 revs are not very accurate with the Insoric mesurement device. In reality the power goes quite flat up until 7000 and then decreases.

 
  #158  
Old 07-27-2018, 12:22 AM
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Germany
Posts: 436
Rep Power: 54
GT996 has a reputation beyond reputeGT996 has a reputation beyond reputeGT996 has a reputation beyond reputeGT996 has a reputation beyond reputeGT996 has a reputation beyond reputeGT996 has a reputation beyond reputeGT996 has a reputation beyond reputeGT996 has a reputation beyond reputeGT996 has a reputation beyond reputeGT996 has a reputation beyond reputeGT996 has a reputation beyond repute
The above is with 29 PSI.
 
  #159  
Old 07-27-2018, 01:50 AM
Premium Sponsor
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Belgium
Posts: 586
Rep Power: 136
stef@europipe has a reputation beyond reputestef@europipe has a reputation beyond reputestef@europipe has a reputation beyond reputestef@europipe has a reputation beyond reputestef@europipe has a reputation beyond reputestef@europipe has a reputation beyond reputestef@europipe has a reputation beyond reputestef@europipe has a reputation beyond reputestef@europipe has a reputation beyond reputestef@europipe has a reputation beyond reputestef@europipe has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by 08957 View Post
this stuff was worked out years and years ago reaching its pinnacle during WWII with the race to win the war in the skys with the fastest and most powerful planes.
​​​​​​​Correct, German WWII warplanes used methanol/water injection and/or nitrous oxide and that was 75 years ago.
 
__________________
[email protected]
www.europipe.be
  #160  
Old 07-27-2018, 06:46 AM
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: GTA, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,477
Rep Power: 222
The Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by GT996 View Post
The above is with 29 PSI.
nice looking graph but doesn't the intake temp skyrocket after about 200km/hr? I had 23psi on my 68s and above 200km/hr the intake temps climbed quickly and you could definitely feel acceleration go down.
 
  #161  
Old 07-27-2018, 07:09 AM
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Germany
Posts: 436
Rep Power: 54
GT996 has a reputation beyond reputeGT996 has a reputation beyond reputeGT996 has a reputation beyond reputeGT996 has a reputation beyond reputeGT996 has a reputation beyond reputeGT996 has a reputation beyond reputeGT996 has a reputation beyond reputeGT996 has a reputation beyond reputeGT996 has a reputation beyond reputeGT996 has a reputation beyond reputeGT996 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post
nice looking graph but doesn't the intake temp skyrocket after about 200km/hr? I had 23psi on my 68s and above 200km/hr the intake temps climbed quickly and you could definitely feel acceleration go down.
41 C @ over 300 km/h. This car has water meth injection, otherwise it wouldn't be possible or to be more correct: only one run quick and with full power and then power decreases from run to run as the engine starts knocking. With the current setup you can do run after run over 300 km/h and everthing is stable and repeatable.
 
  #162  
Old 07-27-2018, 07:42 AM
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Connectiuct
Posts: 273
Rep Power: 37
08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post
nice looking graph but doesn't the intake temp skyrocket after about 200km/hr? I had 23psi on my 68s and above 200km/hr the intake temps climbed quickly and you could definitely feel acceleration go down.
This is where I think running the best possible intercoolers as well as E85 as a chemical intercooler and or alcohol injection would be very helpful

I think your biggest problem from what I can see is that you are trying to extract the maximum amount of power possible on the stock bottom end while using weak fuel - this obviously requires better / more efficient turbos to enhance the VE of the engine and create a more stable cylinder tio avoid detonation

 
  #163  
Old 07-27-2018, 10:16 AM
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: GTA, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,477
Rep Power: 222
The Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by 08957 View Post
This is where I think running the best possible intercoolers as well as E85 as a chemical intercooler and or alcohol injection would be very helpful

I think your biggest problem from what I can see is that you are trying to extract the maximum amount of power possible on the stock bottom end while using weak fuel - this obviously requires better / more efficient turbos to enhance the VE of the engine and create a more stable cylinder tio avoid detonation
Absolutely. My original plan was to keep the 68s and add the DO88 Big Pack system (which I now have on the car) with a new custom tune from Sam. Ended up with the Xonas and intake temps are way better for the 2 reasons - intercoolers and increased efficiency. When temps are in the 70s I'm seeing no knock sensor activity and even in the 90s there is minimal knock sensor activity. This is why I'm still inching forward with a little more tweaking to extract whatever I can safely get out of pumpgas.
 
  #164  
Old 07-27-2018, 10:32 AM
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Connectiuct
Posts: 273
Rep Power: 37
08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post
Absolutely. My original plan was to keep the 68s and add the DO88 Big Pack system (which I now have on the car) with a new custom tune from Sam. Ended up with the Xonas and intake temps are way better for the 2 reasons - intercoolers and increased efficiency. When temps are in the 70s I'm seeing no knock sensor activity and even in the 90s there is minimal knock sensor activity. This is why I'm still inching forward with a little more tweaking to extract whatever I can safely get out of pumpgas.
Dont you have access to some race gas? 5 gallons of 100 octane unleaded in every tank would be cheap insurance agsinst a disaster. Pump gas is vety unreliable. While the factory ecu does have a lot of protection systems built in i would personally not push the envelope without the saftey margin of some race gas in the tank or a good alcohol injection system with a fail safe like aquamist
 
  #165  
Old 07-27-2018, 01:02 PM
turboslut's Avatar
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Fort Lauderdale
Posts: 671
Rep Power: 50
turboslut has a brilliant futureturboslut has a brilliant futureturboslut has a brilliant futureturboslut has a brilliant futureturboslut has a brilliant futureturboslut has a brilliant futureturboslut has a brilliant futureturboslut has a brilliant futureturboslut has a brilliant futureturboslut has a brilliant futureturboslut has a brilliant future
Definitely one of my favorite threads!

M3_Maestro...have you ever messed wit the F10 M5? I see a few coming off hard down to the $35k-$45k price range and was thinking about getting one. PM me so this doesn't turn into a thread jack.
 

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:
You have already rated this thread Rating: Thread Rating: 0 votes,  average.

Quick Reply: Custom tuning w/ By Design - lots of power - need new clutch


Join 6SpeedOnline
Visit our Sponsors

Contact Us - About Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.