my 997s vs. M3 e92 (story)
#31
05-25-2008, 04:53 AM
No, I think YOU are mising the point. You are simply making mine more obvious - people don't buy a Porsche because it is the best performing car in its price range, because it isn't. In fact, its not the best performing car in price ranges much lower. (And in case you didn't know, performance means more than what you listed above - a number of cars will whip a 911 on any track you like for much less $ - the Z06 being the most publicized example). People buy it because it is something special that isn't measured in data sheet numbers.
You act like I have no clue why people buy them. Wake up dude - I own one too. But unlike a huge majority, I bought it knowing that from a performance standpoint Porsche has fallen behind over the past few years in VALUE (i.e. performance/$). They will continue to cash in on the racing history, the marque, the uniqueness that makes a p-car a Porsche. But to lie to yourself that any of it makes it "best"...is just sad. There is nothing wrong with saying "I bought it because I wanted to and I can afford it."
You act like I have no clue why people buy them. Wake up dude - I own one too. But unlike a huge majority, I bought it knowing that from a performance standpoint Porsche has fallen behind over the past few years in VALUE (i.e. performance/$). They will continue to cash in on the racing history, the marque, the uniqueness that makes a p-car a Porsche. But to lie to yourself that any of it makes it "best"...is just sad. There is nothing wrong with saying "I bought it because I wanted to and I can afford it."
I had two high horsepower Z06's prior to my first Porsche Cayman S and now a C2S. I tracked and autoxed those cars. Didn't you ever notice how some of the "underpowered" cars smoked the big boys? It was because their drivers could drive. I'll wager the biggest difference for the layman on the track is the driver. The 997, driven well, is adequate to spank more than a few of the big boys on the track. Racing on the street is for fools anyway.
Now, would I like a little more power? Sure, but I don't lust after a fire breathing monster. I love the balance of the Porsche even though it's only the "best" for me.
#32
05-25-2008, 05:00 PM
Make no mistake on this M3 --it is a beast .
I still prefer the Porsche 997S but I also feel that porsche will have to answer to the calling from customers who want more Hp in their cars .
The mere fact that the Tuners have stayed ahead of the competition shows that it can be done .
The video does reflect a stock to stock straight line run and I do feel it was almost embarrasing for the 997 driver to be faced with the question of "was it as you expected ? " when he lost .
I would prefer ro see a re run though where the rolling start is more timed and one driver per car of near equal weight .
The facelift in 09 may bring some added Hp forb those who want to see more and it will be interesting to see what that car can do. The current 997/997S line is a few years old so we can hope that the revised car has a little more power.
I still prefer the Porsche 997S but I also feel that porsche will have to answer to the calling from customers who want more Hp in their cars .
The mere fact that the Tuners have stayed ahead of the competition shows that it can be done .
The video does reflect a stock to stock straight line run and I do feel it was almost embarrasing for the 997 driver to be faced with the question of "was it as you expected ? " when he lost .
I would prefer ro see a re run though where the rolling start is more timed and one driver per car of near equal weight .
The facelift in 09 may bring some added Hp forb those who want to see more and it will be interesting to see what that car can do. The current 997/997S line is a few years old so we can hope that the revised car has a little more power.
Last edited by yrralis1; 05-25-2008 at 05:03 PM.
#33
05-25-2008, 07:08 PM
Gosh, "dude", nothing personal. We agree. the Porsche is special. Did you notice though that the underpowered Penske LMP2 Porsche's beat the Audis at Sebring earlier this year. Wonder how that happened. Porsche made its mark in endurance racing initially as a giant killer with underpowered cars. That is part of that special legacy.
I had two high horsepower Z06's prior to my first Porsche Cayman S and now a C2S. I tracked and autoxed those cars. Didn't you ever notice how some of the "underpowered" cars smoked the big boys? It was because their drivers could drive. I'll wager the biggest difference for the layman on the track is the driver. The 997, driven well, is adequate to spank more than a few of the big boys on the track. Racing on the street is for fools anyway.
Now, would I like a little more power? Sure, but I don't lust after a fire breathing monster. I love the balance of the Porsche even though it's only the "best" for me.
I had two high horsepower Z06's prior to my first Porsche Cayman S and now a C2S. I tracked and autoxed those cars. Didn't you ever notice how some of the "underpowered" cars smoked the big boys? It was because their drivers could drive. I'll wager the biggest difference for the layman on the track is the driver. The 997, driven well, is adequate to spank more than a few of the big boys on the track. Racing on the street is for fools anyway.
Now, would I like a little more power? Sure, but I don't lust after a fire breathing monster. I love the balance of the Porsche even though it's only the "best" for me.
I hate to admit it, but you are right. Racing in the streets is for fools. I am an ortho surgeon on call this weekend. Just had 2 kids dead at the scene after a horrific crash drag racing. The 3rd person died in the OR before I even had a chance to fix her fractured femur.
So, to you all out there, no matter what kind of performance you have going on, any little mistake at 140mph will be deadly. Keep the racing on tracks.
#34
05-25-2008, 07:45 PM
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Buenos Aires
Posts: 1,458
Rep Power: 78 
I have an M3 .
I have a 997tt.
I also had a 997S .
The M3 is a beast but I was under the impression that it's speed is restricted at 155 MPH (maybe that's North American spec and i see you are in Argentina) . Also Tubi only made exhaust and manifold when I had bought parts for my former 997S car . I had Evoms headers on it . You also did not chip the ECU which would make a big difference in the midrange .
I do feel that my last modded 997S with F77 , Tubi, ECU was faster than the stock M3 but not by much .
Stock to stock OR as in your case stock M3 to lightly modded (but not chipped) 997S -- your story sounds about right . However look at this Gt3 cream it both in a straight line and on the track. Fast forward to 1 minute 30 seconds .http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0hVJgMQ2VA
The M3 can take the corners too but not like a Porsche .
I have a 997tt.
I also had a 997S .
The M3 is a beast but I was under the impression that it's speed is restricted at 155 MPH (maybe that's North American spec and i see you are in Argentina) . Also Tubi only made exhaust and manifold when I had bought parts for my former 997S car . I had Evoms headers on it . You also did not chip the ECU which would make a big difference in the midrange .
I do feel that my last modded 997S with F77 , Tubi, ECU was faster than the stock M3 but not by much .
Stock to stock OR as in your case stock M3 to lightly modded (but not chipped) 997S -- your story sounds about right . However look at this Gt3 cream it both in a straight line and on the track. Fast forward to 1 minute 30 seconds .http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0hVJgMQ2VA
The M3 can take the corners too but not like a Porsche .
my bro had a GT3 and thats a totally diferent car! is not an S!
the M is fast on the straight but not as fast as a 911 is a track!
I love my 997s I would never change it for a M3 e92
I had 2 M3's e46 with lost of mods! nice cars! but nothing compare a 911!
thats my baby...
#35
05-25-2008, 07:52 PM
Paris -- Nice car !!!
I have both cars -- a 997tt and an M3 . The primary driver of the M3 is my girlfriend and the 997tt is currently in the shop getting the EVT 700 parts added to the current setup .
Here is the photo gallery of :
1) The first moments when I brought home the M3 last week .
2) My 997tt with most of the mods except the interior upgrades (done) and the modified Turbos (in progress) .
http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/yrralis1
I have both cars -- a 997tt and an M3 . The primary driver of the M3 is my girlfriend and the 997tt is currently in the shop getting the EVT 700 parts added to the current setup .
Here is the photo gallery of :
1) The first moments when I brought home the M3 last week .
2) My 997tt with most of the mods except the interior upgrades (done) and the modified Turbos (in progress) .
http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/yrralis1
Last edited by yrralis1; 05-25-2008 at 07:54 PM.
#37
05-26-2008, 05:29 AM
kbs,
I hate to admit it, but you are right. Racing in the streets is for fools. I am an ortho surgeon on call this weekend. Just had 2 kids dead at the scene after a horrific crash drag racing. The 3rd person died in the OR before I even had a chance to fix her fractured femur.
So, to you all out there, no matter what kind of performance you have going on, any little mistake at 140mph will be deadly. Keep the racing on tracks.
I hate to admit it, but you are right. Racing in the streets is for fools. I am an ortho surgeon on call this weekend. Just had 2 kids dead at the scene after a horrific crash drag racing. The 3rd person died in the OR before I even had a chance to fix her fractured femur.
So, to you all out there, no matter what kind of performance you have going on, any little mistake at 140mph will be deadly. Keep the racing on tracks.
What a tragic event and sobering post. When will people ever learn? One of my best buds is an ortho surgeon as well and I have heard some horrible stories. I don't know how you guys do it, my hat is off to you.
#38
05-26-2008, 06:29 AM
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: New Jersey(outside Phila)
Age: 63
Posts: 2,597
Rep Power: 124 Paris -- Nice car !!!
I have both cars -- a 997tt and an M3 . The primary driver of the M3 is my girlfriend and the 997tt is currently in the shop getting the EVT 700 parts added to the current setup .
Here is the photo gallery of :
1) The first moments when I brought home the M3 last week .
2) My 997tt with most of the mods except the interior upgrades (done) and the modified Turbos (in progress) .
http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/yrralis1
I have both cars -- a 997tt and an M3 . The primary driver of the M3 is my girlfriend and the 997tt is currently in the shop getting the EVT 700 parts added to the current setup .
Here is the photo gallery of :
1) The first moments when I brought home the M3 last week .
2) My 997tt with most of the mods except the interior upgrades (done) and the modified Turbos (in progress) .
http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/yrralis1
The M3 looks really nice, but that TT is stunning!!!!
#39
05-26-2008, 07:16 AM
No, I think YOU are mising the point. You are simply making mine more obvious - people don't buy a Porsche because it is the best performing car in its price range, because it isn't. In fact, its not the best performing car in price ranges much lower. (And in case you didn't know, performance means more than what you listed above - a number of cars will whip a 911 on any track you like for much less $ - the Z06 being the most publicized example). People buy it because it is something special that isn't measured in data sheet numbers.
You act like I have no clue why people buy them. Wake up dude - I own one too. But unlike a huge majority, I bought it knowing that from a performance standpoint Porsche has fallen behind over the past few years in VALUE (i.e. performance/$). They will continue to cash in on the racing history, the marque, the uniqueness that makes a p-car a Porsche. But to lie to yourself that any of it makes it "best"...is just sad. There is nothing wrong with saying "I bought it because I wanted to and I can afford it."
You act like I have no clue why people buy them. Wake up dude - I own one too. But unlike a huge majority, I bought it knowing that from a performance standpoint Porsche has fallen behind over the past few years in VALUE (i.e. performance/$). They will continue to cash in on the racing history, the marque, the uniqueness that makes a p-car a Porsche. But to lie to yourself that any of it makes it "best"...is just sad. There is nothing wrong with saying "I bought it because I wanted to and I can afford it."
I like that. "so, why did you buy a 911?"
"BECAUSE I WANTED ONE AND I COULD AFFORD IT"
My brother once said, you could have bought a WRX and had money to spare.
Sorry, buy a surbaru is just not my idea of a "sports" car. At least, it does not represent me.
#40
05-26-2008, 12:08 PM
The real fair comparison would be to line up the M3 with the GT3. I'm not surprised by the result. I have a 335xi daily driver and I can tell you it goes like stink.
On the track, no chance against the 997.
On the track, no chance against the 997.
#41
05-26-2008, 12:19 PM
the 997GT3 DOES embarass the e9X m3. there was a video not long ago on a review and the m3 couldnt hold its own at all, GT3 walked it like it was standing still. new m3 doesnt have a snowballs chance in hell against a 997GT3, simple as that. sure it can take a 997S when the speeds get to 130+ mph, but then again, a stock 997S only has 355 hp. on a track the 997S lays waste to the new m3.
Last edited by PorscheC4; 05-26-2008 at 12:23 PM.
#42
05-26-2008, 12:57 PM
I don't see why the 997GT3 has to be brought up. The Porsche is an overall better car than the M3. People who can afford a 997 can afford the M3.
If you want ultimate bang/buck, get a Z06 or wait a few months and get a ZR1. the M3 will not be able to touch the Vette in any performance category but beating an M3 is not the point of driving a Porsche now is it? Why try to justify the purchase by bringing its big brother. Of course by spending even more money, you are going to get a faster car.
If you want ultimate bang/buck, get a Z06 or wait a few months and get a ZR1. the M3 will not be able to touch the Vette in any performance category but beating an M3 is not the point of driving a Porsche now is it? Why try to justify the purchase by bringing its big brother. Of course by spending even more money, you are going to get a faster car.
#43
05-26-2008, 12:57 PM
Ok,
From the performance standpoint, we can compare the M3 to the 997 all day long.
For that matter, we can compare many newer model japanese and american cars to the 997 all day long.
At the end of the day, a BMW is a BMW.
An M3 is a BMW.
A GTR is a Nissan (Datsun)
Porsche...911? Why even bother comparing.
It's like comparing a Bentley to a Chrysler 300.
Come on. A Chrysler 300 is a good car, hell maybe even a better overall car than a Bentley, maybe it even has a better ride than a Bentley.
Folks, a Bentley will always be a Bentley and a Chrysler will never be a Bentley.
So too with an M3. (and a GTR)
No matter how fast or how cheap an M3 or GTR becomes, I will never give up my 911!!
And, for that matter, it's probably a good thing that the 911's are priced like they are. It affords the exclusivity that many of us enjoy.
Prime example: 1984, Pontiac Fiero debut
Awesome break through futuristic design!!! Like no other car at the time. Had the "pancake" flat look of a Ferrari! Nice and wide.
I had one!!! one of the first ones off of the line!
But, what the hell was I expecting. It was a freakin Pontiac. No matter how bad *** looking this car was, within a year, every joe shmo in my town had one!!!!
It was no longer viewed as a awesome car. It was a good looking "commom" car made affordable to the mass.
I still think it is a pretty good looking car. But it was priced to sell and that is part of what makes the history of a car.
Porsche 911, limited production, high priced (exclusive), great quality and performance.
This is why I own a 911!!!!
I should visit the M3 forums and see how many 911 owners visit to argue the merits of a 911.
From the performance standpoint, we can compare the M3 to the 997 all day long.
For that matter, we can compare many newer model japanese and american cars to the 997 all day long.
At the end of the day, a BMW is a BMW.
An M3 is a BMW.
A GTR is a Nissan (Datsun)
Porsche...911? Why even bother comparing.
It's like comparing a Bentley to a Chrysler 300.
Come on. A Chrysler 300 is a good car, hell maybe even a better overall car than a Bentley, maybe it even has a better ride than a Bentley.
Folks, a Bentley will always be a Bentley and a Chrysler will never be a Bentley.
So too with an M3. (and a GTR)
No matter how fast or how cheap an M3 or GTR becomes, I will never give up my 911!!
And, for that matter, it's probably a good thing that the 911's are priced like they are. It affords the exclusivity that many of us enjoy.
Prime example: 1984, Pontiac Fiero debut
Awesome break through futuristic design!!! Like no other car at the time. Had the "pancake" flat look of a Ferrari! Nice and wide.
I had one!!! one of the first ones off of the line!
But, what the hell was I expecting. It was a freakin Pontiac. No matter how bad *** looking this car was, within a year, every joe shmo in my town had one!!!!
It was no longer viewed as a awesome car. It was a good looking "commom" car made affordable to the mass.
I still think it is a pretty good looking car. But it was priced to sell and that is part of what makes the history of a car.
Porsche 911, limited production, high priced (exclusive), great quality and performance.
This is why I own a 911!!!!
I should visit the M3 forums and see how many 911 owners visit to argue the merits of a 911.
#44
05-26-2008, 01:20 PM
Lots of good comments on this thread!
Yes like most of us here I could have bought a Z06 and left quite a chunk of change in my pocket vs. the 997S - but I did not, I could have bought an M3 - but I did not.
I bought a Porsche because that is what I wanted - pure and simple. The lines of the car, the heritage - 40 year history, the superb engineering, the uniqueness of the design, all add to the experience.
I have 3,000 miles on my car and about 250 of those are track miles and another 400 are driving to and from the track - going AutoXing next weekend (I am not very good - but it is fun) so count me in the group that loves the racing heritage and enjoys his car on the street (you won't catch me racing on the street!) and at the track and the AutoX.
I might buy a BMW or Corvette someday but not now – having too much fun in my Porsche!
Yes like most of us here I could have bought a Z06 and left quite a chunk of change in my pocket vs. the 997S - but I did not, I could have bought an M3 - but I did not.
I bought a Porsche because that is what I wanted - pure and simple. The lines of the car, the heritage - 40 year history, the superb engineering, the uniqueness of the design, all add to the experience.
I have 3,000 miles on my car and about 250 of those are track miles and another 400 are driving to and from the track - going AutoXing next weekend (I am not very good - but it is fun) so count me in the group that loves the racing heritage and enjoys his car on the street (you won't catch me racing on the street!) and at the track and the AutoX.
I might buy a BMW or Corvette someday but not now – having too much fun in my Porsche!
Last edited by MartinJF; 05-26-2008 at 08:03 PM.
#45
05-26-2008, 07:59 PM
Neil --thanks for the compliment .
Doc --Dollar for dollar the M3 actually lines up with the Cayman S . The Gt3 is not in the same price league.
997ttt -- The badge is not the basis to praise or discredit any car . A quality product would deliver if the badge was stripped .
I have bought both Porsches and BMW's and my feeling has been that the Porsche 997 line stands in a class of its own yet the competion is gaining. There's no excuse why an M3 ought to knock this 997S off its perch so easily even in a straight line with an overweight driver and an added passenger . No excuse .
A fair race of equal driver weight and a precise start point would be better though bhut in my opinion the result ought not be so easily debatable -- and it is !!!!!
In the meantime the Porsche tuners are getting the job done . My 997tt (expected back withina week or two ) ought to have approx 700 Hp with just a few bolt on parts , upgraded clutch , and modified turbos . For 150 K why can't Porsche deliever such acar right out of the box ????
BMW did .
So did Nissan .
So will others .
... and I speculate that in time so will Porsche . Otherwise the customers dishing out 80- 180K on cars might think about it more .
As for my choice of M3 . That car was directly pitted agaisnt the 997S and it was my opinion that the 997S was the car i wanted to buy but space was an issue in a two porsche household so the M3 won.
Doc --Dollar for dollar the M3 actually lines up with the Cayman S . The Gt3 is not in the same price league.
997ttt -- The badge is not the basis to praise or discredit any car . A quality product would deliver if the badge was stripped .
I have bought both Porsches and BMW's and my feeling has been that the Porsche 997 line stands in a class of its own yet the competion is gaining. There's no excuse why an M3 ought to knock this 997S off its perch so easily even in a straight line with an overweight driver and an added passenger . No excuse .
A fair race of equal driver weight and a precise start point would be better though bhut in my opinion the result ought not be so easily debatable -- and it is !!!!!
In the meantime the Porsche tuners are getting the job done . My 997tt (expected back withina week or two ) ought to have approx 700 Hp with just a few bolt on parts , upgraded clutch , and modified turbos . For 150 K why can't Porsche deliever such acar right out of the box ????
BMW did .
So did Nissan .
So will others .
... and I speculate that in time so will Porsche . Otherwise the customers dishing out 80- 180K on cars might think about it more .
As for my choice of M3 . That car was directly pitted agaisnt the 997S and it was my opinion that the 997S was the car i wanted to buy but space was an issue in a two porsche household so the M3 won.