I agree with what's said above. I think most members have provided enough opinions and suggestions, but ultimately you will have to decide if you want to take the chances with it. If you think the car is great and price is right, jump in by all means.

And she is a beauty alright. If I was still shopping I'd be blinded by the look of this one as well.

 

Based on the lousy car market I think you're in the 'driver's seat' regarding price. High $40K to low $50K I believe is the range for a 'clean' 2005 997S. That said $54K is a bit closer to the buy range.

Is the car still in Santa Cruz or is it in So Cal?

ps. I just got through negotiating for an elevator 'modernization' in a 3 story apartment complex in Santa Monica that is just about the cost of this car. I rather have a new car but we need to update our elevator.

 

Jay -
The thread is moving from the DME interpretation to price discussion of a moderators car . One thing I won't do is slam a sale of another forum member.

My previous comments about interpreting a DME however stand . I would even feel this way if it was my own car .

Whatever price or sale arrangement you face with another forum member is really between you both .

As for the 6speed being a "family" -- even when it comes to ones own biological family ... business is business . He's a seller and you are a buyer and I would say this even if you were brothers .

 

Hey guys,

I'm the owner of the car in question. First, let me say that Jay has been an absolute pleasure to deal with the past few days, and I'm sure he can verify that I have been encouraging him to research, get opinions and only buy the car if he feels comfortable with the DME readout, overall condition and price. Buying your first 911 is a big deal.

A bit of history, I purchased the car here on 6speed a few years ago and was informed by my mechanic about the overrev. At the time, and also recently for Jay's PPI, the mechanic considered it a non-issue and commented to both of us about the overall great condition of the car. Doing the math (at range 4 and 5 revs, not at 7K rpm) implies that there was a range 4 reading of about 1 sec and range 5 of about 1/10 of 1 sec. My mechanic and I agree that this implies a single missed downshift, quickly caught, at some point in the life of the car > 2 years ago. The car probably did a few track days earlier in it's life, and someone borked a shift entering a corner. I've done my share of track days over the years (993 and Miata, not this car) and lost count of the number of times I've seen this happen and did it more than once myself.

I bought the car without hesitation and have enjoyed it the past 2 years. During this time, the car was taken in for routine maintenace, a few mods and some minor warranty work at Stevens Creek Porsche, Carlsen Porsche and Sharkwerks. The DME data was never considered an issue for warranty purposes, and I was also offered an extended warranty by Carlsen. With overall engine hours at 5259 since new, there have been ~2000 or so hours since the missed shift. The car runs great, has been 100% reliable, burns about 1qt/5K miles, is bone dry, produces no smoke and overall has been a pleasure to drive.

I love the fact that the onboard computer can so accurately give us an idea of the car's history. I wish it went even further and tracked how often a car was floored when cold, used crappy gas or oil, lugged at 1k in 6th gear, rode the clutch in stop and go traffic, and lots of other things that can contribute to the condition of a drivetrain. My next purchase will be a '73 911, and I will have to use the actual condition of the car and a PPI to make a decision, rather than computer data. The closest it has to a computer is a distributor cap, lol.

Anyway, I thought it might be useful to this thread to give some history and the owner's perspective. I hope Jay makes the right decision for himself and finds a great car whether it's mine or another, and becomes an active member here online with the rest of us. This is a great community, I have made friends, organized drives, and I have learned more here than I could have imagined.

Cheers,

--Pete

 

That's so true. We're so focused on what the computer tells us - and it's at best only ever part of the story.

Good luck with the sale and purchase guys.

 

And not over it...LOL...

Thanks for making my point.

 

And to add to your point:
If you drive your car to redline, inertia alone will cause you to inadvertently bump the rev limiter. Once you hit 7200rpm and prepare to shift and depress the clutch, the engine will continue spinning a few hundred rpm up until you catch it and hit the next gear. There are your range 3,4,5's.

Any used manual, Porsche with close to 30,000 miles will have some over revs. It is expected.

For an eye opening experience, all Porsche owners that own a manual and drive to redline should run a DME check on their own cars. You'll then realize that all this DME talk here has been nonsense.

The car looks solid and what the owner mentions makes sense.

 

Are suggesting 8,400 RPM can come from inertia of acceleration? No. Inertia will not even get you to 7400 RPM, even with a LWFW in 1st gear at WOT, rolling downhill. It doesn't matter if your clutch is in, and you are depressing the accelerator at WOT. You would never climb to 8000 RPM. A range error greater than 3 comes form poor aftermarket ECU programming or careless downshifting. Both reasons to talk away from this car, especially when there are literally hundreds of similar cars that do not exhibit signs of abuse.

 

I'll chime in hear too. A buyer needs to make his own decision. Do your research and make the decision. Be sure to read the overrev thread that includes comments from a Porsche tech that knows the ranges and what Porsche thinks of them.

In the end it is simply a fact about the car. Weigh it with the other facts and options and other cars available. Once you weight the pluses and minuses, then it is a question of price, i.e. value. Then, expected duration of ownership. Needs for reliability and ability to afford repairs if they are necessary.

One anecdote. I was looking at the prior generation twin turbo Audi S4. Seemed like fun, fast and versatile. Then I found out the turbos could have issues. Then I found out that a turbo job cost $7k, about 1/4 the cost of the car. Caused me to bag the idea.

 

You can clearly read in my post that I am not saying 8400rpm will be reached from inertia. I mentioned that you will bump the rev limiter, and that is fact, if you drive your car to redline.

I will clearly state that I am not a Porsche Master Tech. But I do know one, and he tells me that the DME is only one piece of the puzzle and independently is not an absolute indication of engine life/longevity. I am a physician by practice, so I can respect this stance as it is similar to how I make a formative diagnosis with several lab values, symptoms, signs.

I agree with you about the range 3 being possibly from ECU programming or downshifting. Whether it was careless or not is debatable. There are many reasons why someone would intentionally bump it and avoid shifting (watch the 'Ring video of the viper ACR driver who intentionally does it to not lose seconds in the turns). If I'm in the market for a used sports car, I am expecting that it was driven hard.

Do you drive your Turbo to redline? Have you ran your own DME? I've taken a look at mine and a few others at the shop. I see range 3's and 4's on many cars, and I know the owners. They are not the "abusive" type.

This thread adds a sense of unnecessary paranoia to many people. Let's keep it real folks. Do your homework, leave the interpreting to an expert, and use common sense when making a purchase:
1. It's a used car
2. It's a sports car
3. It's a Porsche, and can handle it.

 

You stated "Once you hit 7200rpm and prepare to shift and depress the clutch, the engine will continue spinning a few hundred rpm up until you catch it and hit the next gear. There are your range 3,4,5's." Your statement suggests that you can hit range 5 (8400 RPM) by simply allowing the engine to spin up. How else could your statement be interpreted.

But you did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...LOL... sorry...just kidding...couldn't resist.

Not sure why this is relevent...but an FYI, you aren't the only physician here...

LOL...why are you looking at other people's cars at the shop? I have my own Durametric to run dataloging on both my turbo and GT3...I'm at RA and Blackhawk often. I have never been in those ranges...I do not abuse my engines (which, BTW, is a completely different block than the consumer grade engine on the Carrera.) It is clear that neither of us are experts. Its also clear we're not going to convince each other. But if I was offered two identical cars in every way...I know which one I would pick.

 

Great points, bbwyu.

Let me clarify a few things: in the context of ranges 1,2,3,4 on DME scans, almost all used, manual transmission cars will have them. In fact, just starting your engine and letting the engine rev up, will cause over-revs in range 1,2. Just watch your ignition next time and check when your last range 1 and 2 occurred on your DME.

These rare examples of used cars with only range 1,2 but no other range overrevs are the exception, not the rule. They are also mainly tiptronic.

I wasn't trying to personalize this, but the fact is that many of us here run our cars to redline, and shift a little too late, while the engine is still running rpm's upward.

Lastly, when you apply a bit of practicality here and think outside of Porsche, you start to realize how silly the relevance of these over-rev measurements are. I have a 1995 Toyota truck as a beater. My wife practices driving stick on it and it has been over-rev'd multiple times by mis-shifting, and guess what? It's still running fine. If you want to extrapolate engine life of a Porsche that hit 8400rpm for 1/8th of a second and think it's going to give out, I got some news for you: It will survive, just as the car on sale on this thread is alive and kicking.

 

I went car shopping for another Porsche and asked to see DME scans. I was shocked from what I saw, so I asked the service manager to show me a few that were currently in the service bay. He grabbed the PIWIS scanner and they all show range 1,2,3's. Some had 4's, and he wasn't concerned. I also have Durametric for my own car.

 

Thank you guys so much for your insightful responses, I sincerely appreciate it! I'm going to make the 5+ hour drive (One-way) to Santa Cruz tomorrow to see and drive this car in person. I'll let everbody know how things go up there.....

Thanks again!

Jay Jones

 

Spot on Bobby!!!!