V8 Vantage Clutch Friction Plate Only
#61
06-13-2014, 04:39 PM
Your talking to one. 
full throttle means full load on the drivetrain as torque, but for those parts that are not moving apart or together, there is force, torque, no movement. AND no movement , means no, force or torque, and no power dissipated, which means no wear or heat. (a good analogy is someone sitting on a chair. There is the force of gravity, but the chair is pushing back with equal force , so there is no net force. ) So, no movement, so no power, no heat, or anything. its steady state . If the clutch is slipping, then its broken. this usually this means the pressure plate is not strong enough. Even if the clutch surface is worn down to the rivets, it should (if its working correctly) hold. however, once I starts to break free from the "sticktion" of the disc being pressed to the flywheel via the pressure plate, then you will have friction, heat, wear, that all will accelerate as the flywheel progressively spins faster than the clutch and driveline.
So, on the dyno, as long as the disc doesn't move relative to the flywheel, you can dyno all day long and nothing will happen to it. its basically locked together. there is no need for break in. The slight amount of "break in" that occurs is the parts do get more friendly and can change the release characteristics slightly, but clamping pressure is not changed. if you were to "fry" a clutch, its better to do it with one that has a little wear on it, or glazing might be more likely. But on a dyno, the clutch isn't really a factor for how its used.
all the reason to go to the upgraded pressure plate that stuart is offering when its time for a clutch change. plus it sounds like the clutch discs have a better surface on them, maybe a bit harder than stock. Stuart can answer this better. (to keep things back on track here . )
Ill start another clutch thread so that we can discuss the clutch issues. maybe even someone that has done the job himself, can post pics.
clamping force numbers of stock would be nice to know. also, the equivalent Valero part for the discs so we can see why they wear so fast, under abusive operation.
full throttle means full load on the drivetrain as torque, but for those parts that are not moving apart or together, there is force, torque, no movement. AND no movement , means no, force or torque, and no power dissipated, which means no wear or heat. (a good analogy is someone sitting on a chair. There is the force of gravity, but the chair is pushing back with equal force , so there is no net force. ) So, no movement, so no power, no heat, or anything. its steady state . If the clutch is slipping, then its broken. this usually this means the pressure plate is not strong enough. Even if the clutch surface is worn down to the rivets, it should (if its working correctly) hold. however, once I starts to break free from the "sticktion" of the disc being pressed to the flywheel via the pressure plate, then you will have friction, heat, wear, that all will accelerate as the flywheel progressively spins faster than the clutch and driveline.So, on the dyno, as long as the disc doesn't move relative to the flywheel, you can dyno all day long and nothing will happen to it. its basically locked together. there is no need for break in. The slight amount of "break in" that occurs is the parts do get more friendly and can change the release characteristics slightly, but clamping pressure is not changed. if you were to "fry" a clutch, its better to do it with one that has a little wear on it, or glazing might be more likely. But on a dyno, the clutch isn't really a factor for how its used.
all the reason to go to the upgraded pressure plate that stuart is offering when its time for a clutch change. plus it sounds like the clutch discs have a better surface on them, maybe a bit harder than stock. Stuart can answer this better. (to keep things back on track here .
) Ill start another clutch thread so that we can discuss the clutch issues. maybe even someone that has done the job himself, can post pics.
clamping force numbers of stock would be nice to know. also, the equivalent Valero part for the discs so we can see why they wear so fast, under abusive operation.
-If the clutch is slipping, then its broken....SLIPPING CLUTCH IS ALMOST ALWAYS WORNOUT OR SOAKED IN ENGINE OIL NOT BROKEN, CAN USUALLY STILL BE DRIVEN WITH LITTLE THROTTLE
- A BROKEN CLUTCH IS NOISEY, BROKEN PARTS BOUNCING AROUND, GRINDING UP IN THE BELLHOUSING AND UNDRIVABLE
- BRAKE PADS THAT ARE BROKEN IN GRAB THE BRAKE ROTOR BETTER ,I E MORE FRICTION
-CLUTCH DISC THAT IS BROKEN IN GRABS THE PP AND FLYWHEEL BETTER
- THEREFORE SINCE A DYNO PUTS ALOT OF LOAD ON A DRIVETRAIN IT IS BETTER WITH A BROKEN IN CLUTCH THAT HAS ALITTLE LESS CHANCE OF SLIPPING AND THEREFORE OVERHEATING WEARING OUT WARPING
- I WILL GIVE YOU THE LAST SAY AND WILL NOT RESPOND CAUSE SOME SAY WE ARE DISRESPECTING THE VENDOR AND I HAVE TRIED ENOUGH TO STATE THE FACTS LETS JUST AGREE TO DISAGREE MY FELLOW AM FAN
- EXCUSE MY CAPITAL LETTERS IAM HONESTLY NOT SHOUTING AT YOU
Last edited by frankgtb; 06-13-2014 at 04:42 PM.
#63
06-13-2014, 06:01 PM
with all due respect where did you get your degree?
-If the clutch is slipping, then its broken....SLIPPING CLUTCH IS ALMOST ALWAYS WORNOUT OR SOAKED IN ENGINE OIL NOT BROKEN, CAN USUALLY STILL BE DRIVEN WITH LITTLE THROTTLE
- A BROKEN CLUTCH IS NOISEY, BROKEN PARTS BOUNCING AROUND, GRINDING UP IN THE BELLHOUSING AND UNDRIVABLE
- BRAKE PADS THAT ARE BROKEN IN GRAB THE BRAKE ROTOR BETTER ,I E MORE FRICTION
-CLUTCH DISC THAT IS BROKEN IN GRABS THE PP AND FLYWHEEL BETTER
- THEREFORE SINCE A DYNO PUTS ALOT OF LOAD ON A DRIVETRAIN IT IS BETTER WITH A BROKEN IN CLUTCH THAT HAS ALITTLE LESS CHANCE OF SLIPPING AND THEREFORE OVERHEATING WEARING OUT WARPING
- I WILL GIVE YOU THE LAST SAY AND WILL NOT RESPOND CAUSE SOME SAY WE ARE DISRESPECTING THE VENDOR AND I HAVE TRIED ENOUGH TO STATE THE FACTS LETS JUST AGREE TO DISAGREE MY FELLOW AM FAN
- EXCUSE MY CAPITAL LETTERS IAM HONESTLY NOT SHOUTING AT YOU
-If the clutch is slipping, then its broken....SLIPPING CLUTCH IS ALMOST ALWAYS WORNOUT OR SOAKED IN ENGINE OIL NOT BROKEN, CAN USUALLY STILL BE DRIVEN WITH LITTLE THROTTLE
- A BROKEN CLUTCH IS NOISEY, BROKEN PARTS BOUNCING AROUND, GRINDING UP IN THE BELLHOUSING AND UNDRIVABLE
- BRAKE PADS THAT ARE BROKEN IN GRAB THE BRAKE ROTOR BETTER ,I E MORE FRICTION
-CLUTCH DISC THAT IS BROKEN IN GRABS THE PP AND FLYWHEEL BETTER
- THEREFORE SINCE A DYNO PUTS ALOT OF LOAD ON A DRIVETRAIN IT IS BETTER WITH A BROKEN IN CLUTCH THAT HAS ALITTLE LESS CHANCE OF SLIPPING AND THEREFORE OVERHEATING WEARING OUT WARPING
- I WILL GIVE YOU THE LAST SAY AND WILL NOT RESPOND CAUSE SOME SAY WE ARE DISRESPECTING THE VENDOR AND I HAVE TRIED ENOUGH TO STATE THE FACTS LETS JUST AGREE TO DISAGREE MY FELLOW AM FAN
- EXCUSE MY CAPITAL LETTERS IAM HONESTLY NOT SHOUTING AT YOU
Frank.. please settle down (the caps look like shouting). I didn't get my degree in English, but the last I recall, broken means "Not working as designed". I think "Broken in pieces" means parts are not connected that should be.
I don't want to extend this discussion to be an argument about semantics of what defines "broken". (does it mean "falling part" literally, or "not working". personally, I think the former is a subset of the later. ) so, yes, if the clutch is broken, its contaminated with oil. its broke.. its lost spring pressure.... its broke......the discs are worn out.... its broken. its glazed....... its broken!
the clutch discs should be able to be worn to the last .1mm and still work. infact, metal on metal will work, just as it does on a brake pad when its down to the backing plate,, but because metal on metal doesn't take heat well, it melts and welds itself to the opposing friction surface.
(and certainly does have some friction capabilities, but just not as much as the designed friction pad.)Breaking in brake pads, while similar to the clutch friction surface mating to the flywheel, is a little different process and concept. brake pads are not used for clamping force, they are designed to work exclusively under slip. very high slip, and very high temps. this is why brake pads have to be seriously heat cycled to work to best potential. (to cook the resins out of them and to optimize contact surface to surface friction) AND they are made of other material mixes due to their heat exposure designe.
Clutch clamping force with a new surface friction pads, can have rated clamping force out of the box. As racers, there is no brake- in that we care about, with a new clutch, because slip is not something we need to use of the clutch. if you are drag racing, or doing standing starts, yes, some breaking in should be done to optimize the surface contact. we are talking racing, not street driving, or running on a dyno which is NO problem for a new clutch. new cars from the factory are often on a dyno without "breaking in" the clutch.
the truth is that the clutch does break in over time, but it only optimizes how you can do max fiction slips, not clamping force to any discernible degree. a new clutch, if wildly slipped, not broken in, can get hot spots and glazing. (can reduce slip characteristics, and clamping force) But dyno runs or racing, on a road course, doesn't hurt or tax the clutch. if it slips new, the clutch has issues (I call it broken). there is no way a new clutch will slip on a engine that it is designed for, under WOT. Be nice to the new clutch as far as release techniques, but this doesn't apply to how hard you can drive the car, or how soon you can put it on a dyno.
thanks for the last word. I did make another thread to discuss clutch operation and theory (along with experience)
Last edited by XWCGT; 06-13-2014 at 06:05 PM.
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