Ok. Say you are getting handicapped for having these computer gizmos managing your work load around the track. So if we equalize that and take " the advantages" away through some devious timing penalties.... then we are getting back to good old racing and not steering a computer controlled missile with hand paddles (and several cup holders perhaps) around a track. Sounds good to me, actually, that sounds much better to me. It's back to skills and not money to buy the gizmos.

 

i think that´s the main point and fear of traditionalists and why they dislike PDK. i think Porsche will support the manual as long as it´s possible and as long as it makes a bit of sense. But the market will decide in the end, that´s economy. at some point even Porsche could discontinue the manuals but even then i don`t see a real problem for the "hardcore manualists".

if it´s all about driving pleasure and not about track times, why not buy an old 70s 911 RS or newer RS models, like the last air cooled ones (993), or even a Singer 911?! i think each one of them is far more authentic, hardcore and more fun than the newer GT3 versions.

 

So because someone likes driving a manual they should be confined to driving old temperamental 911's? They are fun, and raw, but no where near as precise and driver tuned of a machine as a new generation GT3, in fact, neither will a PDK version of the GT3 be either.

Who says that is even enjoyable. 9 times out of 10 the people wanting PDK do because they are already slow anyways, and even with PDK you still aren't going to be the fastest car at most DE's in a GT3. Not if there are 600-700 hp Corvette's and Vipers and GT-R's running around. But there is nothing like rowing gears and beating up on gadget cars.

And if you picked up 2-3 seconds from adding PDK, there is a lot more wrong with your driving than the transmission.

As for the economy, it says the the Manual GT3 is doing just fine, and that there is no guarantee that a PDK one will do better as a trend FOLLOWER that has now lost it's originality and purity. So if Porsche introduces PDK and sales end up the same, what have they gained?


As support to my last post I leave you with this quote for autoblog:

On the road circuit, the Carrera S with PDK was a whole different animal. While the PDK selector can be moved to "manual" mode, we found ourselves bouncing off redline/fuel cutoff coming out of the corners (PDK will not select the next gear in manual mode). We instead chose to leave PDK in Drive, the "Sport Plus" button activated, and the PASM in sport mode. In that configuration, you get brake-induced downshifts (or the driver can override them with the steering wheel controls) while the computer controls instantaneous upshifts coming out of the corners. With a lower ride height and PASM, the shock damping was much improved and the body roll tolerable. The track's two dozen corners were much less intimidating when each shift was performed flawlessly by PDK, and our lap times felt much faster. We took hot laps with skilled factory drivers Hurley Haywood, Patrick Longs, David Donahue, Kees Nierop and David Murry, and they also preferred to keep the selector in Drive. While Porsche was mum on the subject, we can't wait to sample the GT2 and GT3 with PDK (the transmission is compatible with the limited-slip differential).


So like I said, the next evolution is just to have automatic transmission and take the driver completely out of the equation. In fact, that is the current trend.


We don't have long for sports cars as we know it to survive anyways. If you want PDK, buy something else.

 

yeah but on the other hand the new GT3s are getting more precise with the help of computers as well, soon with PASM+PDCC+PTV etc.
so a future GT3 is a mixed bag anyway, with the (analog) manual swimming in a digital sea. It will be hard to survive there (and i hope it does).

And on top of that, Porsche/Röhrl is starting to set the benchmarks with PDK equipped 911s, and things like these will have a big impact on future customer´s decisions, even if they wouldn`t be able to clock a 12 on the Ring.

i think there is a loyal market for manual GT3s as there would be a market for PDK GT3s. so why not offer both and make even more money, esp. with the new sales goals they have. i think the reason is not that Porsche thinks the PDK shouldn`t be in a GT3, to me it´s because they haven`t got a track ready PDK version yet.

 

Those things are not making the GT3 more precise, they just make it more fool proof. The suspension tuning is what makes the car precise. Porsche are conceding somewhat, which is why the base GT3's are now 3200-3300 lbs. We'll now be looking at almost 3400 lbs GT3's with PDK and a bunch of electronics.

Porsche got two seconds on the Nurburgring between the PDK equipped Turbo and non PDK equipped Turbo and part of that was due to better gear ratios in the PDK car. That amounts to a few tenths on a normal track. The difference will be even less with the new 7 speed manual transmission. So it seems as if Porsche are exploring other options to just throwing the GT3 to the tech pool. A no lift shift option similar to what GM is using + 7 speed close ratio manual gearbox, and the times will be almost identical, and there will be no reason for PDK except for 1/4 mile runs and we know the GT3 isn't for that.

If the PDK can handle the torque of the Turbo on the track, it can easily handle the GT3 on track. If Porsche wanted it in there, it would be in the first generation of 991 GT3. That is without a doubt (unless the GT1 Mertzger truly does have another generation left).

PDK is new technology, and cost a lot of money to develop, of course they will set benchmarks with it, that's a no brainer considering you can get better times with it, no matter how small the difference is.

 

PASM and PDCC are parts of the suspension management.
they make the car more balanced, less nervous, reduce body roll and therefore help the car to be more precise and faster in the end.

it´s not the hp i would be worried about, as u said the PDK can handle the Turbo Torque so it could easily handle the GT3 figures.
But i am not sure if the current PDK is designed to handle too many long and decent track tortures (electronics, heat etc.).

 

Yes, I took things out of context. I did this on purpose, because I think people overlook all of the other electronically controlled items, and advanced technologies that are on the GT3 (or other 911 trim). It's like people choose which advances are okay and which ones are not. I welcome new engineering in all of its glory.

Are you suggesting that the PDK GT3 will not be as tuned as the non-PDK GT3?

Yes, it is. I passed an Ferrari 360 CS (F-1 transmission) in a stock Miata (I've got wonderful footage of this). But I still wanted to bring my GT-R out on track.

So if Walter Rohrl can run a few seconds faster on each lap, there is a lot wrong with his driving?

If not, I may have missed your point. It sounded like you wrote - if you improve a 2-3 seconds, there is a lot wrong with your driving.

It already happened where shifts mean win or lose - drag racing. A manual shift means a loss - instantly.

I love this quote. So better engineering makes the driving experience more fun or not?

I've put this in place of PDK. Watch this:
The above statement is still true.

 

Jasper your post is too jumbled to make any sense of it. Try again.


But I would hope that you could use a little common sense to figure out that by 2-3 seconds I did not mean the nurburgring considering I made the analogy of the different times in the same post.

And we are not talking about drag racing so what's your point? When the manuals in the comparisons have launch control as well, get back to me.

PASM only makes the suspension slightly firmer than normal, that can easily be achieved without electronics. However the people who buy sports cars but want a station wagon ride must be pacified. This in and of itself does not make the car more precise, it only makes it more versatile.

No one knows exactly how much PDCC will benefit anything. Let's be sure it's not a gimmick first. The new 911 has already been reported as having numb steering, all these electronic gizmos will not increase the drivers connection to the road.

 

the PDCC makes a difference of 4 seconds on the Ring compared to the ones without. all these computer gizmos (as a whole) will make a GT3 significantly faster in the future. the level of purity will sink but the level of performance will rise.

 

I happen to agree with this as well as some of your other points about technological advances with an aging gearbox . However .. I don't think the reason the Gt3 opted out of PDK has to do entirely with consumer sentiment .. I speculate it has more to do with the part itself and warranty/maintenance cost as well as future marketing . After all .. Porsche coild easily offer both and the manual loyalists can still buy the car . They omitted PDK for a reason and since they have not disclosed it one can only speculate as to why . My speculation is that if PDK breaks down under track driving it will cost Porsche a fortune to overhaul transmissions . Another guess is that 2 years down the road Porsche can offer the "new and improved gt3 now with PDK" and send resale on the manual cars into the dust (much like they did with the Tiptronic Turbo cars) .

And yes .. there area few die hard manual traditionalists who either fear the PDK or resist the change in favor of driving the way it's always been in the past ..but that's not everyone .

Lastly .. I do have PDK in one of my cars . It offers a lot but it's not perfect. I do feel it ought to be offered for many of the reasons you chose to list but i still don't know if I will buy oner again.

 

i have to say i agree with all of this. i think Porsche didn`t want to take too many risks.

First risk: The 991 GT3 will get a complete new engine and in the GT3`s case it is not that simple as it would be to put an all new engine into a Carrera. It´s the end of the Mezger era and lots of Porschephiles are afraid of that and how reliable the new engine will be.

now imagine Porsche would take a second risk with the PDK in the GT3. i mean the GT3 stands for hardcore use and utter reliability and it would be a real debacle if both things would be making trouble. i mean one thing would be enough to harm the reputation of the GT3 but 2?!

i think if the new GT3 engine will do a proper job in the hands of the customers they will offer PDK as an option later on.
maybe for the facelift of the 991.

 

Porsche has had pdk ready for many years, the only problem they had was with torque from the turbo. Don't forget pdk was ready for the 997.1 turbo but did not mate to the mertzger.
. The reason pdk won't be on the gt3 is because they don't want it there.


What it sounds like is that Porsche had found that the 7 speed close ratio (manual) gearbox is fast enough to not have to deal with the headache of pdk. Wanna bet we see that in the gt3 first?

 

i would rather bet on the PDK for the 991 GT3 facelift

 

You are right .. Porsche doesn't want it there . It may cost too much for them to have it and they might even profit more if it makes way in the future .

And yes . it is on the Turbo and Turbo S but even though many Turbo owners would like to believe the Turbo is a track car .. it isn't . It's a luxury car with high HP.

There's no mention of the Gt2 yet .

The 7 speed manual might make it first .. who knows .. but that doesn't mean anything. It only implies that Porsche can offer a few new appetizers before serving a full menu selection.

I can't think of one reason why they could not offer both ... except THEIR cost.

Let's write a list of all the things "Porsche didn't want" in the 997 -
1) Dynamic engine mounts in the first Gt3 cars .
2) Sport Chrono in all the white base 997 launch cars with PDK
3) Paddles instead of buttons with PDK
4) Center radiator in 09 and 10 Dfi cars
5) axle lock in all Titronic 997.1 turbos as well as half of the manual cars
I can keep going .. it's a long list !!

So does no PDK in the launch 991 Gt3 surprise me ?
Nope .

 

I thought it was simply put.

Cliffs - there are engineering advances for every model, I find it funny that some are blessed, and others are not.