Stroker Kit 3.6 to 4.0
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Yeah, maybe you are right. I personally think there is another $10K to get the ecu programmed, harness built and the thing tuned. I'm sure it's a screamer at 13:1 and some 110 leaded juice.
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From: Gig Harbor, WA
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I have spoken with the owner and discussed building motors with the parts that I would supply. Their price is pretty reasonable compared to some of the other quotes I got. Discussed with him some price breaks doing multiple builds at once and he was open to the idea. They have been around for a while and do great work.
They are on top of my list to have the motors built by, along with a couple of race engine build shops(all they do is build race motors, not just Porsches).
They are on top of my list to have the motors built by, along with a couple of race engine build shops(all they do is build race motors, not just Porsches).
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I chitchatted with who is who of the local Porsche builders, along with a few out of state ones. I do not really want to list names, and have them mad at me saying I am biased for not using them, maybe even going as far as getting me in trouble with the forum claiming I am badmouthing their prices, or work, etc.
Some I talked to obviously did not do the work themselves, even though they claimed to, the pricing was astronomical which also makes sense when they would have to pay the Porsche tax themselves to whom ever builds their motors and then tack it onto our prices =) (double the tax
). You could tell that they were not engine builders from the info they were giving me. They were either holding back the info like its a national treasure or not having a clue which is what I would bet on. I am sure they know the basics. At least I hope they do.
The others were just plain unreasonable when it came to pricing.
I got a $70,000 quote from a well known Porsche company for a built 4.0 engine for my GT2. Maybe i should have not told them it was a GT2… That might have doubled the price. hahaha Even 50% of that price is too high. They did say it would come with cnc ported heads which even with the valves, valve springs etc. can not add more than 5K to the price. Didn't even say anything about cams. I am holding back some curse words and let me tell you it is very hard to do so!
Look, I realize they have to make profit, they are not in business to give the stuff away but when you are trying to charge 200-600% profit, it is just out right unreasonable. It seems to me they have gotten away with it for years though, and I am sure there are still people paying those unreal prices. Otherwise they wouldn't be quoting them right??
Some I talked to obviously did not do the work themselves, even though they claimed to, the pricing was astronomical which also makes sense when they would have to pay the Porsche tax themselves to whom ever builds their motors and then tack it onto our prices =) (double the tax
). You could tell that they were not engine builders from the info they were giving me. They were either holding back the info like its a national treasure or not having a clue which is what I would bet on. I am sure they know the basics. At least I hope they do.The others were just plain unreasonable when it came to pricing.
I got a $70,000 quote from a well known Porsche company for a built 4.0 engine for my GT2. Maybe i should have not told them it was a GT2… That might have doubled the price. hahaha Even 50% of that price is too high. They did say it would come with cnc ported heads which even with the valves, valve springs etc. can not add more than 5K to the price. Didn't even say anything about cams. I am holding back some curse words and let me tell you it is very hard to do so!
Look, I realize they have to make profit, they are not in business to give the stuff away but when you are trying to charge 200-600% profit, it is just out right unreasonable. It seems to me they have gotten away with it for years though, and I am sure there are still people paying those unreal prices. Otherwise they wouldn't be quoting them right??
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Joined: Sep 2012
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From: Gig Harbor, WA
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I chitchatted with who is who of the local Porsche builders, along with a few out of state ones. I do not really want to list names, and have them mad at me saying I am biased for not using them, maybe even going as far as getting me in trouble with the forum claiming I am badmouthing their prices, or work, etc.
Some I talked to obviously did not do the work themselves, even though they claimed to, the pricing was astronomical which also makes sense when they would have to pay the Porsche tax themselves to whom ever builds their motors and then tack it onto our prices =) (double the tax). You could tell that they were not engine builders from the info they were giving me. They were either holding back the info like its a national treasure or not having a clue which is what I would bet on. I am sure they know the basics. At least I hope they do.
The others were just plain unreasonable when it came to pricing.
I got a $70,000 quote from a well known Porsche company for a built 4.0 engine for my GT2. Maybe i should have not told them it was a GT2… That might have doubled the price. hahaha Even 50% of that price is too high. They did say it would come with cnc ported heads which even with the valves, valve springs etc. can not add more than 5K to the price. Didn't even say anything about cams. I am holding back some curse words and let me tell you it is very hard to do so!
Look, I realize they have to make profit, they are not in business to give the stuff away but when you are trying to charge 200-600% profit, it is just out right unreasonable. It seems to me they have gotten away with it for years though, and I am sure there are still people paying those unreal prices. Otherwise they wouldn't be quoting them right??
Some I talked to obviously did not do the work themselves, even though they claimed to, the pricing was astronomical which also makes sense when they would have to pay the Porsche tax themselves to whom ever builds their motors and then tack it onto our prices =) (double the tax
). You could tell that they were not engine builders from the info they were giving me. They were either holding back the info like its a national treasure or not having a clue which is what I would bet on. I am sure they know the basics. At least I hope they do.The others were just plain unreasonable when it came to pricing.
I got a $70,000 quote from a well known Porsche company for a built 4.0 engine for my GT2. Maybe i should have not told them it was a GT2… That might have doubled the price. hahaha Even 50% of that price is too high. They did say it would come with cnc ported heads which even with the valves, valve springs etc. can not add more than 5K to the price. Didn't even say anything about cams. I am holding back some curse words and let me tell you it is very hard to do so!
Look, I realize they have to make profit, they are not in business to give the stuff away but when you are trying to charge 200-600% profit, it is just out right unreasonable. It seems to me they have gotten away with it for years though, and I am sure there are still people paying those unreal prices. Otherwise they wouldn't be quoting them right??
I agree that there are some that are reselling other engine builders wares and I spoken to a few of the builders that told me as much...
Sounds like we're on the same page, and if there's something we can help with let me know...
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BTW I think 10K to tune a car with the same head\cams setup is way too much.
Even by switching to a whole new ECU, engine management system, and having to start from scratch, should not cost that much in the real world. Any big name engine management companies like Motec, etc. already have base maps for pretty much everything. From scratch, maybe 5K ish.
Tuning a stock ECU and just changing the fuel and timing tables is a piece of cake. I wish I had the software and hardware to do so.
Even if you were to port, polish the heads, put bigger valves to improve flow, it is still slight increase in displacement. 11%-16% increase in CCs (3.6-4.0, 3.6-4.2). The engine will obviously flow better so you would need to add more fuel but not that much. Just raising the fuel pressure could take care of the added fuel needs, and tuning the fuel table to achieve the proper air\fuel ratio.
Lets take a 3.6L GT3 and say we increase the displacement to 4.2… That is 16.66% increase. I am not sure what size injectors comes with on a 3.6 GT3 but just by increasing the fuel pressure should be sufficient enough to have enough fuel in volume and tuning the ecu to dial in the air fuel ratio should not be that time consuming.
997 GT3 3.6 to 3.8 picked up roughly 5% in displacement and 5% in power but when it went to 4.0 it picked up 11% in displacement but 20% in power. The GT3RS 4.0 is tuned up more, closer to it's limits\potential than the previous models. I am sure improved parts played a role in that too.
Lets say a 3.6 GT3 makes 400hp with some parts like intake, exhaust, etc. and if we go to a 4.2 liters that is 16.66% in size difference which should give us around 466 horses. I am sure there is more to be gained with more timing, some water\meth injection; more octane, more timing = more power =)
If you have a turbo car and you go from a 3.6 to a 4.0, same thing applies as long as you stay with the same turbos, but if you decide to go with a whole different turbo setup then that would complicate the tune and would take more time. Still not 10K's worth, more like 3K ish reasonably
to tune a car with the same head\cams setup is way too much. Even by switching to a whole new ECU, engine management system, and having to start from scratch, should not cost that much in the real world. Any big name engine management companies like Motec, etc. already have base maps for pretty much everything. From scratch, maybe 5K ish.
Tuning a stock ECU and just changing the fuel and timing tables is a piece of cake. I wish I had the software and hardware to do so.
Even if you were to port, polish the heads, put bigger valves to improve flow, it is still slight increase in displacement. 11%-16% increase in CCs (3.6-4.0, 3.6-4.2). The engine will obviously flow better so you would need to add more fuel but not that much. Just raising the fuel pressure could take care of the added fuel needs, and tuning the fuel table to achieve the proper air\fuel ratio.
Lets take a 3.6L GT3 and say we increase the displacement to 4.2… That is 16.66% increase. I am not sure what size injectors comes with on a 3.6 GT3 but just by increasing the fuel pressure should be sufficient enough to have enough fuel in volume and tuning the ecu to dial in the air fuel ratio should not be that time consuming.
997 GT3 3.6 to 3.8 picked up roughly 5% in displacement and 5% in power but when it went to 4.0 it picked up 11% in displacement but 20% in power. The GT3RS 4.0 is tuned up more, closer to it's limits\potential than the previous models. I am sure improved parts played a role in that too.
Lets say a 3.6 GT3 makes 400hp with some parts like intake, exhaust, etc. and if we go to a 4.2 liters that is 16.66% in size difference which should give us around 466 horses. I am sure there is more to be gained with more timing, some water\meth injection; more octane, more timing = more power =)
If you have a turbo car and you go from a 3.6 to a 4.0, same thing applies as long as you stay with the same turbos, but if you decide to go with a whole different turbo setup then that would complicate the tune and would take more time. Still not 10K's worth, more like 3K ish reasonably
Last edited by ADAMNSONS; Dec 13, 2012 at 01:00 AM.
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I have an E39 M5 torn down to the chassis in my garage 
I had the block recoated and then changed my mind to going turbo charged where I would have had to have it sleeved which meat 2K waisted on the coating. I was going to stick a huge turbo in the back, in where the spare tire would go. M5s don't have spare tires anyway =) They made enough torque, power on the motor alone, 400ish, with adding a turbo like a T88 to the mix to take over past 5000 rpm it would have been a beast. I was hoping to make close to if not more than 1000 horses. Mounting the turbo back there, and the size, it probably would not have spooled up below 5000rpm
I still have the parts boxed up. I gave up on the project. I have to get rid of the parts, and the shell of the car sometime soon. It has been sitting in my garage for years. The block is bagged and is still sitting in its crate since it came back from the coating. I had the heads worked on too. They picked up 50 cfm with the port work and the bigger valves. I was really looking forward to building the sucker but I had to cut my losses at some point.
If you need any parts, I would love to sell all the stuff I have. I wish someone would buy the shell. I did tons of hours of work to strip it down to bare shell. It would be perfect for someone who would want to build a track M5.
I had the block recoated and then changed my mind to going turbo charged where I would have had to have it sleeved which meat 2K waisted on the coating. I was going to stick a huge turbo in the back, in where the spare tire would go. M5s don't have spare tires anyway =) They made enough torque, power on the motor alone, 400ish, with adding a turbo like a T88 to the mix to take over past 5000 rpm it would have been a beast. I was hoping to make close to if not more than 1000 horses. Mounting the turbo back there, and the size, it probably would not have spooled up below 5000rpm
I still have the parts boxed up. I gave up on the project. I have to get rid of the parts, and the shell of the car sometime soon. It has been sitting in my garage for years. The block is bagged and is still sitting in its crate since it came back from the coating. I had the heads worked on too. They picked up 50 cfm with the port work and the bigger valves. I was really looking forward to building the sucker but I had to cut my losses at some point.
If you need any parts, I would love to sell all the stuff I have. I wish someone would buy the shell. I did tons of hours of work to strip it down to bare shell. It would be perfect for someone who would want to build a track M5.
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Once you've had your bike fully de-restricted, an Aprilia rs 125 big bore kit is usually the next thing people want to install. You can only get so much power from an engine while keeping the power in a useable rev range so increasing the displacement is really the only option if you want to increase power and torque (which translate into speed and acceleration).
Its often said that there is 'no replacement for displacement' and a big bore kit simple makes your engine bigger. This allows more fuel and air to be burnt within the engine on each power stroke which gives you more torque (turning force on the crank). Power is a function of torque multiplied by engine speed so if you can produce a bigger torque in your new engine whilst allowing it to rev just as easily, you can squeeze a little more power from your bike.
These power and torque increases do not come for free. The only Aprilia RS 125 big bore kit currently available gives you an extra 25cc (turning your bike into an Aprilia RS 150). This doesn't mean your going to outpace any 600cc bikes and the kit does not come cheap. Expect to pay at least £400.
To keep your bike legal, you'll need to re-register it and reinsure it (insurance companies do not like big bore kits or riders who install big bore kits to their bikes...expect the worst). Maintenance costs will increase as your bike will require exotic parts for engine rebuilds and as your bike is no longer stock, its resale value will decrease.
Big bore kits can be sourced online and occasionally for a bit cheaper than usual on eBay. The kit is basically a new top end for your bike so if you have rebuilt it then fitting the big bore kit is a straightforward process.
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Its often said that there is 'no replacement for displacement' and a big bore kit simple makes your engine bigger. This allows more fuel and air to be burnt within the engine on each power stroke which gives you more torque (turning force on the crank). Power is a function of torque multiplied by engine speed so if you can produce a bigger torque in your new engine whilst allowing it to rev just as easily, you can squeeze a little more power from your bike.
These power and torque increases do not come for free. The only Aprilia RS 125 big bore kit currently available gives you an extra 25cc (turning your bike into an Aprilia RS 150). This doesn't mean your going to outpace any 600cc bikes and the kit does not come cheap. Expect to pay at least £400.
To keep your bike legal, you'll need to re-register it and reinsure it (insurance companies do not like big bore kits or riders who install big bore kits to their bikes...expect the worst). Maintenance costs will increase as your bike will require exotic parts for engine rebuilds and as your bike is no longer stock, its resale value will decrease.
Big bore kits can be sourced online and occasionally for a bit cheaper than usual on eBay. The kit is basically a new top end for your bike so if you have rebuilt it then fitting the big bore kit is a straightforward process.
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Last edited by LucacHumac; Jan 31, 2013 at 01:13 AM.
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Here are some pics of the Crank and Rods together. Pistons will be JE FSRs. Different compression ratios will be available; you pick what you want. Thinking 9.4-9.5 will be ideal for the turbos, unless you plan on running a crazy amount of boost. Keeping the compression will help with off boost power and spool up!
NA, GT2 applications will vary from 11.5 to 12.5 to 1. If you decide you want more, you will have more. I won't have photos for the pistons because they will be different depending on Turbo vs NA and different for different compression ratios. I will have some more info on the pistons shortly.
I also got metal head gaskets that will be made custom to the bore size, and thickness you will choose. Trying to get the pistons figured out in a way that you can pick up some compression for those of you with GT3s by using different head gasket thicknesses. There will be a limit of course because you don't want to run too thick of a gasket and mess up things like quench area, etc. I don't know too much about that but I know it can hurt the combustion by running too thick of a head gasket. I will try and find the technical info on that. I think it will be great to give you the opportunity to adjust your compression up or down 1/2 a point by using different thicknesses.
The Rod and Main bearings will be included. They will be modified bearings to work with the specific, Crank, Rod combination; things like enlarged oiling holes. They can be coated as well for an additional $225. Clevite Rod bearings, and Porsche main bearings, as seen in the photos.
NA, GT2 applications will vary from 11.5 to 12.5 to 1. If you decide you want more, you will have more. I won't have photos for the pistons because they will be different depending on Turbo vs NA and different for different compression ratios. I will have some more info on the pistons shortly.
I also got metal head gaskets that will be made custom to the bore size, and thickness you will choose. Trying to get the pistons figured out in a way that you can pick up some compression for those of you with GT3s by using different head gasket thicknesses. There will be a limit of course because you don't want to run too thick of a gasket and mess up things like quench area, etc. I don't know too much about that but I know it can hurt the combustion by running too thick of a head gasket. I will try and find the technical info on that. I think it will be great to give you the opportunity to adjust your compression up or down 1/2 a point by using different thicknesses.
The Rod and Main bearings will be included. They will be modified bearings to work with the specific, Crank, Rod combination; things like enlarged oiling holes. They can be coated as well for an additional $225. Clevite Rod bearings, and Porsche main bearings, as seen in the photos.
Last edited by ADAMNSONS; Dec 18, 2012 at 11:49 AM.
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Don't think I could justify the extra 5k to go titanium though. They should be more than enough as are if made by Pauter.
Did the CP option for the pistons work out too expensive, or were JE a better option with sizes etc.
Dave.
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CPs turnaround time was a little longer and FSRs seem to be the piston choice of most of my mentors\gurus : ) . They also have a similar X-forging. They are both great pistons. Both local to me so it was a close race. If I were going with Carillo rods then CP would have been a better choice because they are the same company and buying both rods and pistons from one company probably would have made more sense. Pauter rods are the best ones in my and many others' option. They also don't offer Titanium rods and Pauter does.
The only thing left is the head studs! Does any of you have any head bolts laying around; I need measurements of the head bolts to see if I can have some custom ones made which can be stronger and more affordable than some I have seen like the evoms studs for around 1400.
The only thing left is the head studs! Does any of you have any head bolts laying around; I need measurements of the head bolts to see if I can have some custom ones made which can be stronger and more affordable than some I have seen like the evoms studs for around 1400.