On the track the increased stiffness will help with being in tune with the car dynamics.

 

I would probably add a break (maybe a half break) at the 964 as it was a significant departure from the original car with a new engine, P/S, ABS, coil springs, 4-wheel drive version, auto trans option, etc. Same body shell but much different car.

I've read that Porsche intends to work off the new platform for fourteen years (speculative, I'm sure) with two models, just like 996/997. If so, it might be a while before the car gets much bigger. Who knows?

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't know why Porsche couldn't just get rid of the backseats and make the 911 mid engined. Keep the classic shape but drop that 4.0L Flat 6 in the middle. That would still be a 911 to me.

 

Don't forget the B series in 1969 added over 2" in wheelbase length so there's probably a break there also.

ChuckJ

 

The identity crisis in car design, that all Porsche interiors must look alike (pretty well) is a disastrous decision which not handled carefully... Case in point. The Acura triangular back and front, the Mazda gaping hole in the front, the Bangle butt, the fugly Oldsmobile grille. Same issue with the 991 interior.. now to be followed by the boxter and of course anything else being cooked up in the next 5 years or so. It might turn a full generation of buyers away from the Brand... perhaps to never come back. In business school they teach you that it is cheaper to retain an existing customer then to acquire a new customer.... One wonders sometimes.. In my personal opinion, the new interior design morphed the 911 into a luxury sedan... but... heck, perhaps that is exactly what they had in mind...

 

That is pretty much exactly what a cayman is minus the displacement.

 

You never know that just might be the Cayman R or S

ChuckJ

 

I think you spelled 911 Carrera incorrectly.

-no back seats
-mid engined
-flat 6
-porsche design

Sounds like a cayman to me.

 

+1, brother...
- not impeded = Carrera...

This must read Carrera, because marketing/sales is so full of itself, that it needs to create a 'lesser' model in the Cayman.

Why turbos don't fit, I'll never know.
Why you can't fit the same 3.4/6/8 engine in the Cayman (possibly 4.0), I'll never know...
Why it MUST have less HP, I'll never understand.

 

Had quite a car day yesterday! Chronology:

- Drove the Cayman R to a C&C in the morning.
- Drove my 997S to a dealer.
- Drove two older 911s, a 1983 SC and a 1989 Carrera Targa. Drove each for about 45 minutes on mostly great roads with minimal traffic.
- Drove my 997S to another dealer.
- Drove the same 991 I drove last time, a base car with manual and no performance options.
- Drove my 997S home.

Here are some observations, organized by car:

The older 911s
- Serious time travel! No power steering, pedals hinged at the floor, long stalk of a gear shift, no adjustability of the steering wheel, very little power by modern standards, etc. The cars felt like they were from the 50s rather than 80s.
- Both cars drove very similarly. The dancing dynamic and interactive 911 feel that I like in my 997 was magnified in these cars, but qualitatively similar. I loved it!
- The manual steering was fun in turns. You feel like you have to torque the car around turns rather than just turning the wheel - use those muscles! But the steering is also much less quick than the modern cars, I guess because the manual steering requires a higher steering ratio.
- Better engine sound than any of the more modern Porsches I’ve driven. Meaty and natural. I totally get the air-cooled thing.
- Ride quality was surprisingly comfortable. Softer than the more modern Porsches.
-Braking power didn’t seem nearly as strong as the modern Porsches. I guess these are drum brakes?
-I’ve been thinking about getting an older 911 as an occasional fun car for a while, and I feel more inclined to do that after having driven these two. But I think I need to do a lot more homework first.

991 (not repeating everything in my previous review)
- My how things have changed since the old 911s!
- The car feels drum tight and performance-focused. Fast, and easy to drive fast, but I still wonder how controllable it is at the limit, particularly without driver aids? Wouldn't want to get to the edge and then fall off a cliff.
- I feel cocooned in this car, and somewhat isolated from the environment. Probably has a lot to do with the quietness of the car (too quiet?) and the height of the center console (which I’d like to see at least 1” lower). I assume the cab remedies much of this feeling.
- I was specifically looking for the rear-engined feel this time, and I found it. The car is moving towards the feel of the Cayman, but isn’t there yet. Yes, it can still be called a 911. BUT, the dancing dynamics are greatly muted in this car compared to the older 911s – you really do have to look for them. It's as though the 991 doesn't dance much because it's so sure-footed that it's decided it doesn't need or want to dance. So I’ll call the 991 sort of a borderline 911. I predict that I won't be able to call the next generation a 911, but hope to be wrong.
- This time, I did feel that the base 991 is a bit underpowered, especially for a car of this price. But I was very mindful of the revs because I was putting more miles on someone else’s new car during the break-in period, so I suspect that this will be less of an issue when I feel more comfortable letting 'er rip.
- This time, the steering seemed like it gave me more feedback. There was definitely some useful vibration there. But there was also a somewhat unnatural feel, like this was great simulation of a great steering system, rather than the real thing. I know I may be biased because I know it’s electric, but I don’t think it’s just bias talking.
- I’m still not really liking the sound of the 991. It sounds artificial, and I think that reflects the fact that sound is piped in. Again, maybe the cab sounds better.
- Looking at the 991 coupe next the 997 coupe, I think the 991 looks better. Yes, it’s sleek and very different from the older 911s, but so is the 997.
- I still think the 991 cab looks better than the 991 coupe. IMO, one of the best looking cabs money can buy today.
- I really admire this car, and it can be quite thrilling at speed, but I still wonder if I could fully bond with it over time. The car seems a bit aloof, like a great performer that’s prepared to do it’s thing with or without me, rather than seeking a real partnership with me. Like a cat/panther rather than a friendly doggy (the older 911s). But I don’t know. The guys who've had the 991 for a while are best positioned to comment on this.

997
When I finished driving the 991, I was so impressed that I thought maybe these guys are right, maybe the 991 is just a better car than the 997, so I should throw in the towel and get one soon. Then I got back in my 997 and started driving. As someone once said, it felt “ten years old” compared to the 991. But in a good, best of both worlds, way. It has much more of the dancing quality and much more strongly reminded me of the older 911s. A sort of pleasantly “rubbery” quality in the suspension and steering - not loose or sloppy, but more supple and compliant, like a flexible athlete. And yet the 997 is also crazy fast and nicely refined compared to the older 911s, so in that sense close to the 991 also and plenty modern.

Cayman R
I think this is a really special car, especially at this price, and has potential to become a valued collectible. The performance simply blows the older 911s away, and the car feels very light and agile. About as sure-footed as the 991, and yet there’s a mechanical rawness to it which you don’t find with the 991 or even quite with a 997 GTS. But alas it doesn’t dance like any of the 911s, even the 991, which is why I continue to prefer the 911 to the Cayman, no matter how good they make the Cayman. No guys, simply adding more power won't do the trick for me.

My conclusion so far is that, while the 991 is a fabulous car, the overall package of the 997 is more what I want right now because of the way it blends the old with the new. With the 991, it’s mostly about the new, plus there’s the concern (possibly unfounded) about being unable to bond with the 991. But if the 991 GT3 is made more powerful, more raw, more interactive, and isn’t laden with too many driver aids, it may be too hard to resist. I look forward to finding out.

OK, enough car stuff for now. I think I need to stop by the office today and do some real work as penance for all this exploratory indulgence.

 

What is this 'dancing' you're speaking of.

 

Just finished an Autocross and even with PDCC, you can still lose it. I must tell you it would be difficult to attribute what system gives you what relative change in driving dynamic but there definitely is one. Manifold, again I find my self on the wrong end of an apology - of sorts. Having done this now in the 997 and the 991, they are very different. I don't think that that makes them more or less "true" and as Buckwheat sagely suggests, we should get away from that sort of back handed complementing and just talk cars, I can easily see why some might consider aspects of the 991 to be a step forward, or a step back. A friend sent me a recent article from Automobile Magazine and he put it quite nicely "fabulous car. Too bad it wont kill you anymore."

Not quite correct - everything has limits and you can cross them even in a 991. But the car is far more forgiving and far more planted when pushed, even and possible especially in my novice hands. I bought all of the bells and whistles and they really work well together - I suspect you would get a different result if you turned off the stability control and had an MT. But it would only be closer to the 997.

Where I really disagree with people who question the pedigree of the 991 is that it does not suspend the laws of physics - it still is a hammer thrown handle first and electronic steering or not, it still has plenty of talkback, if you listening. Less than the 997? Yes. Little or none? No! A layer of gauze between you and the car? Mule-muffins! And those who say otherwise should have their credentials checked. I can buy different. I can buy it is relatively less than the 997. That it is numb or non-responsive - that is just not fair or correct.

And before anyone gets all smug, the handling and talkback of the 997 is anemic relative to much earlier 911s which were lighter, much smaller, had narrower wheels and tires, and an engine that pushed, felt and responded very differently. The 997 is a houseboat by comparison to some mich earlier models.

To me the 991 is a big improvement overall. I must concede it came with some trade offs - it usually does. But to me, the driving dynamic is great overall and the improvements are well worth it. I traded a great 997 for my 991 and having driven them both hard, I would do it again, without hesitation. I don't fault anyone for reaching the opposite conclusion.

 

It's the distinct way the 911 reponds to inputs, particularly related to pitch and roll. That's an inherent result of the car's atypical design, I think primarily due to having the engine in the rear, combined with a relatively short wheelbase (again, 997 wheelbase is significantly shorter than the Cayman).

The result is a car which requires more effort and skill to drive well, but a truly skilled driver can wring very high performance out of it (enough to win races). And even for more ordinary drivers (like me), IMO the car provides wonderful dynamic feedback, especially regarding how load is moving among the four tires.

I have the impression that some drivers are very sensitive to this sort of thing and like it, others are sensitive to it but don't care for it, and others aren't sensitive to it, so they don't really notice the difference.

 

Manifold, thanks for the write-up. It's always interesting to read other's perspective. I would ask you to test drive a cab with PSE, and see if you would get the same shrill from the sound as the older air-cool 991s.

I also agree Cayman R is very special, and personally I would not mind owning one as well. It's handling is simply sublime, and better than 997.2, in my own opinion.

 

What are you talking about? The Cayman was created for a larger (in potential customers) but less expensive market segment, it's pretty much the same as a Boxster.

If they create an equal model, they will have to charge equal prices, and #1 devalue the 911, and reduce the market size because they are now competing with themselves.

Why doesn't Nissan make an Infiniti G35 "equal"? I'm sure you can figure that one out.