Originally Posted by heavychevy

What are you talking about? The Cayman was created for a larger (in potential customers) but less expensive market segment, it's pretty much the same as a Boxster.

If they create an equal model, they will have to charge equal prices, and #1 devalue the 911, and reduce the market size because they are now competing with themselves.

Why doesn't Nissan make an Infiniti G35 "equal"? I'm sure you can figure that one out.

Originally Posted by jaspergtr

Right less expensive market. In doing so created a mid-engine coupe. Why stop there? Why not just put the same engine that they've already placed in the 911? Wouldn't it save money?

But wait... Holy crap! That means the price could come down on the 911!!!

Are you implying that a mid-engined two-seater could be equal to the 911? Because then you are absolutely correct! But I thought the rear-engine is the better setup, which would command a larger premium just having the engine in the back. Why not let the market decide?

(It is not a mystery to me what would happen, and obviously not to Porsche either, so they purposely under-engineer the Cayman)

And, if I didn't already know better, didn't Nissan already make a G35 equal? Wasn't it called..., Oh, I don't know..., perhaps a 350Z?

And the G37 also has an equivalent... I'm not 100% positive, but I think it is called a 370Z. Might have to look that one up. I'm sure you can figure that one out.

Originally Posted by heavychevy

The G35/37 is not the flagship of anything, so they can duplicate that all they want to. Don't play coy with me, you knew that.

Why not put Turbo's and Attessa on the G37 and give it 500+ hp and Dunlop Sport Maxx Tires. It weighs a LOT less........... Oh wait, we know what would happen......... oh but liar Mizuno said they made the car as heavy as possible on purpose.........



Still want to play coy?


It would save money to put a CHEAPER motor in the Cayman since it is in fact a cheaper car, why not put the GT-R engine in the Juke? (Oh wait they are!) but make it standard, wouldn't that save money too?

Originally Posted by AG991

Just finished an Autocross and even with PDCC, you can still lose it. I must tell you it would be difficult to attribute what system gives you what relative change in driving dynamic but there definitely is one. Manifold, again I find my self on the wrong end of an apology - of sorts. Having done this now in the 997 and the 991, they are very different. I don't think that that makes them more or less "true" and as Buckwheat sagely suggests, we should get away from that sort of back handed complementing and just talk cars, I can easily see why some might consider aspects of the 991 to be a step forward, or a step back. A friend sent me a recent article from Automobile Magazine and he put it quite nicely "fabulous car. Too bad it wont kill you anymore."

Not quite correct - everything has limits and you can cross them even in a 991. But the car is far more forgiving and far more planted when pushed, even and possible especially in my novice hands. I bought all of the bells and whistles and they really work well together - I suspect you would get a different result if you turned off the stability control and had an MT. But it would only be closer to the 997.

Where I really disagree with people who question the pedigree of the 991 is that it does not suspend the laws of physics - it still is a hammer thrown handle first and electronic steering or not, it still has plenty of talkback, if you listening. Less than the 997? Yes. Little or none? No! A layer of gauze between you and the car? Mule-muffins! And those who say otherwise should have their credentials checked. I can buy different. I can buy it is relatively less than the 997. That it is numb or non-responsive - that is just not fair or correct.

And before anyone gets all smug, the handling and talkback of the 997 is anemic relative to much earlier 911s which were lighter, much smaller, had narrower wheels and tires, and an engine that pushed, felt and responded very differently. The 997 is a houseboat by comparison to some mich earlier models.

To me the 991 is a big improvement overall. I must concede it came with some trade offs - it usually does. But to me, the driving dynamic is great overall and the improvements are well worth it. I traded a great 997 for my 991 and having driven them both hard, I would do it again, without hesitation. I don't fault anyone for reaching the opposite conclusion.

Originally Posted by hlee1169

Manifold, thanks for the write-up. It's always interesting to read other's perspective. I would ask you to test drive a cab with PSE, and see if you would get the same shrill from the sound as the older air-cool 991s.

I also agree Cayman R is very special, and personally I would not mind owning one as well. It's handling is simply sublime, and better than 997.2, in my own opinion.

Originally Posted by hroussard

Soooo. I went to church today ... another Bay Area Porsche dealership. Brand new facility ... beautiful and expensive and so were the cars they sell. Several 991S including cab all with PDK and no buyers on the floor... except one couple looking at a brand new 2012 WHITE 977 Turbo Convertible with an -easy on the pocketbook price tag- of 170K. I climbed in one of the coupe's on the floor... seats did not move..... Ohh. they said.. battery might be flat... so out came the CTEK. Up the the next 991, a nice cab.... same thing.. seats did not move. Sales folks scratching their heads... hmmm. Lots of people have been moving the seats back and forth... must be why the batteries are flat. Then miraculously.. by the next try.. the seats worked... IN BOTH CARS !! Another Porsche invention to save battery power I wonder... the sales folks certainly did not know... but the fact that the CTEK was just laying in the office.... hmmm. Priceless.
Looked the cars over.. I will call the, the 991 coupe the MiniPanny from now onwards. I am definitely not sold on the looks. I do like the interior... but hate ( can I say that without being shot at?) the center console. too high , too wide.. too intrusive . Unless of course there is a cooler hidden below to get a real mean Gin & Tonic quickly and on the fly.
Now onto the 4S... The sales people said that it does not look as if the 4S will have a bigger *** next year. They also tell me they are taking orders for the current 997 Turbo until September of this year, They will be 2013 year models and they said that that the next Turbo will be a 2014 model. That would indicate it to be released in the middle of next year....
Especially for Manifold, they also had a mean green R on the floor for 85K. AWESOME car!! Assuming I would have won the Lotto... I would have driven out with ........ the 2012 Turbo. APPLAUSE!!!!!

Originally Posted by hroussard

The identity crisis in car design, that all Porsche interiors must look alike (pretty well) is a disastrous decision which not handled carefully... Case in point. The Acura triangular back and front, the Mazda gaping hole in the front, the Bangle butt, the fugly Oldsmobile grille. Same issue with the 991 interior.. now to be followed by the boxter and of course anything else being cooked up in the next 5 years or so. It might turn a full generation of buyers away from the Brand... perhaps to never come back. In business school they teach you that it is cheaper to retain an existing customer then to acquire a new customer.... One wonders sometimes.. In my personal opinion, the new interior design morphed the 911 into a luxury sedan... but... heck, perhaps that is exactly what they had in mind...

Originally Posted by Manifold

No apology needed. Your comments have always been well-intentioned, and I've taken them in that spirit.

You're right, they're simply different cars, and there are always tradeoffs. One could say that each car is highly optimized, but they're optimized relative to different criteria, and the key is for each person to know their own criteria well, since that's where the subjectivity comes in. For some people, the 997 is the better choice, for others the 991. I don't think either is best for everyone, though both are great, and it would be nice to have both at the same time.

As I continue to explore the 991, I'm coming to the view that Porsche didn't screw it up. To justify a new generation, they had to make the car substantially different, and the changes they've made make sense, though I would have done some things differently (eg, the steering and interior). The 996/997 had their run, so it was time for something different. There was no need for a 997.3 because the 997 was already optimized. And for those who want the previous generations, fortunately there are still plenty around. From that standpoint, I'm glad I grabbed a nice new 997 while I had the chance, and now I can hang onto it as long as I want.

Originally Posted by AG991

I am glad you got to drive some of the other Porsches and jealous you had the time and ability to drive so many in a day. I am glad you understand what I have been saying about the differences between the 997 and these older cars - other than the name and engine location, they are like night and day, and to my mind, much more so than the 997 and the 991. They are all different. But in imortant ways, all the same.

Originally Posted by jaspergtr

Existing Porsche customers don't buy new cars as much as people that switch. If somebody stays with Porsche, they MIGHT buy another one, but that just replaces the one that was in their driveway. If somebody SWITCHES to Porsche, they get one on the spot, replacing another brand in their driveway. The Porsche 'faithful' will always buy Porsche, but the trick is to acquire new 'members'. So there is no marketing to existing customers, because they've already converted, move on.

Originally Posted by hawc

I'm confused by what you're saying exactly (and what your data is to back it up). Are you saying 1) Existing Porsche customers don't buy new Porsches frequently? 2) Existing Porsche customers don't buy new Porsches frequently? 3) Non-Porshce customers are more likely to buy a new Porsche then existing Porsche customers? Then you go on to say Porsche faithful will always buy a Porsche. So you're not really making sense.

I think Porsche repeat buying is very strong. If just anecdotally, you see many many people that have 3, 4, 5, 6 Porsche over the years (I'm on my 2nd about to buy my 3rd). If you look at Porsche message boards when a new model comes out lots of existing owners trade up so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Originally Posted by jaspergtr

New buyers need marketing, existing owners do not.