Can a Dealer Flash Overwrite a GIAC Program?
#1
11-26-2007, 08:11 AM
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Houston Tx
Posts: 917
Rep Power: 58 
Can a Dealer Flash Overwrite a GIAC Program?
Haven't seen this question posed previously. I'm going to get a flash by Christmas. I was planning to get a GIAC flash with the hand-held unit. I was told by a tuner that IF a dealer re-flashes my ECU, because the hand-held unit is just a switcher that I would have to go through the process of sending my ECU out again.
This is a problem for me because the closest dealer to me (Momentum in Houston) is REALLY anti-mod and the service writers will flash over any aftermarket programming first thing to do any diagnostic work. I was told this by the service writer.
Now is this somewhat of an advantage for the newer software type programming (ie FVD) where you actually own the software.......or would you still be in the same leaky boat?
This is a problem for me because the closest dealer to me (Momentum in Houston) is REALLY anti-mod and the service writers will flash over any aftermarket programming first thing to do any diagnostic work. I was told this by the service writer.
Now is this somewhat of an advantage for the newer software type programming (ie FVD) where you actually own the software.......or would you still be in the same leaky boat?
#3
11-26-2007, 08:16 AM
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Houston Tx
Posts: 917
Rep Power: 58 
#4
11-26-2007, 08:33 AM
The GIAC switcher that I had does not store the program, so you would need the ECU re-programmed. The UMW programmer is self-contained and can reflash the ECU.
#5
11-26-2007, 10:07 AM
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Houston Tx
Posts: 917
Rep Power: 58
Ironic because I'm the guy that bought your switcher over a year ago
So the UMW hand-held actually has flashing capability? I thought it was no more advanced than the GIAC switcher......
So the UMW hand-held actually has flashing capability? I thought it was no more advanced than the GIAC switcher......
#7
11-26-2007, 10:51 AM
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Houston Tx
Posts: 917
Rep Power: 58
Thats not what I'm told.......
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#8
11-26-2007, 11:48 AM
...the GIAC handheld simply switches programs that reside in the ECU. The UMW one actually stores the programs...I already had the ECU flashed back to stock and used my UMW programmer to reload the boost program. I do not know the capability of the others...
#9
11-26-2007, 03:52 PM
Seriously, Todd K emailed me my tune last month and I uploaded it from my laptop via a Softronic USB to OBD2 cable he FedEx'd me. I can flash it back to stock at any time. Good stuff.
#10
11-26-2007, 04:00 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: SoCal (Murrieta/Temecula)
Posts: 432
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Same here with Protomotive. I can switch back and forth via a laptop.
#12
11-26-2007, 05:15 PM
I like Revo because you can also switch from stock to 91, 100 and valet but you can also data log and monitor the engine while you fine tune your ECU. I posted a description from the Revo Select Plus Porsche PDF manual and attached the entire PDF file for you viewing.
The control over boost, airfuel ratio and timing that the
Data Logging
The control over boost, airfuel ratio and timing that the
select plus for porsche
switches allow can make huge differences to the performance of your engine. These
switches allow can make huge differences to the performance of your engine. These
changes can often be felt when driving the car but the only way to be sure that the
changes you make are benificial is to record and interprit the values that the engine
sensors read. The ‘data acquisition’ function built into select plus for porsche
gives you the ability not only to read these sensor values but to record the changing
values under normal driving conditions, this is commonly refered to as ‘data logging’.
select plus for porsche
changes you make are benificial is to record and interprit the values that the engine
sensors read. The ‘data acquisition’ function built into select plus for porsche
gives you the ability not only to read these sensor values but to record the changing
values under normal driving conditions, this is commonly refered to as ‘data logging’.
select plus for porsche
Advanced User Guide V11.06
The most efficient datalogs are those taken over longer ‘pull’ durations through the
rev range. For example; a 4th gear pull from 2000rpm to 6500rpm/redline will give
more information than a 3rd or 2nd gear pull through the same rpm range as it will take
longer so more information is recorded. The only problem with this is it also takes
more space to do, and at a higher terminal speed… Revo do not condone breaking
speed limits.
The below gives you examples of expected outputs/values and a bried explanation of
these values for a car running within the limits of the system.
Data – Engine – Speed :
more information than a 3rd or 2nd gear pull through the same rpm range as it will take
longer so more information is recorded. The only problem with this is it also takes
more space to do, and at a higher terminal speed… Revo do not condone breaking
speed limits.
The below gives you examples of expected outputs/values and a bried explanation of
these values for a car running within the limits of the system.
Data – Engine – Speed :
Engine Crank Speed in revolutions per minute
Data – Engine – Intake Air Temp (IAT) :
Data – Engine – Intake Air Temp (IAT) :
Intake temp. at the throttle body. The air
intake temperature will change daily according to ambient temperature and driving
intake temperature will change daily according to ambient temperature and driving
style. It is difficult to state what the AIT should be, only that cooler is better. It is
useful to monitor the AIT and get a feel for what is expected on any given day. This
allows you to if nothing else account for rises and falls in performance. The higher
the AIT the less timing you will be able to run.
As an indicative guide normally aspirated cars should be no more than 10º above
ambient. Turbo cars should see between 30 and 40º IAT’s under load with efficiently
functioning intercoolers.
Data – Engine – ECT :
useful to monitor the AIT and get a feel for what is expected on any given day. This
allows you to if nothing else account for rises and falls in performance. The higher
the AIT the less timing you will be able to run.
As an indicative guide normally aspirated cars should be no more than 10º above
ambient. Turbo cars should see between 30 and 40º IAT’s under load with efficiently
functioning intercoolers.
Data – Engine – ECT :
Engine coolant temperature in degrees C
Data – Engine –Throttle :
Data – Engine –Throttle :
Throttle position measured as a percentage. 100% being
full throttle.
full throttle.
Data – Knock Retardation – All Cylinders :
Knock value measured in degrees from
TDC (Top Dead Centre). Capable of monitoring upto 8 cylinders. Directly effected by
TDC (Top Dead Centre). Capable of monitoring upto 8 cylinders. Directly effected by
timing settings. If the ignition settings are correct for the fuel quality and conditions
the car is subjected to, then the knock values should be as follows. These values
should not be exceeded:
Normally aspirated - up to 6º but no more
Turbo - up to 3º but no more
Knock value will be less in cooler temperatures, or with higher fuel quality.
DO NOT allow the car to exceed the above values.
Data – Turbo Charger Related – Actual Boost :
the car is subjected to, then the knock values should be as follows. These values
should not be exceeded:
Normally aspirated - up to 6º but no more
Turbo - up to 3º but no more
Knock value will be less in cooler temperatures, or with higher fuel quality.
DO NOT allow the car to exceed the above values.
Data – Turbo Charger Related – Actual Boost :
Boost the car delivers measured in
millibar includes atmospheric pressure. Under regular load levels the maximum value
millibar includes atmospheric pressure. Under regular load levels the maximum value
will be 1.1bar (1100millibar or 2100millibar inc. atmospheric pressure). Under high
load (low rpm, high gear uphill) peak values may see upto 1.3bar but these figures
will not be sustained
Data – Turbo Charger Related – Desired Boost :
load (low rpm, high gear uphill) peak values may see upto 1.3bar but these figures
will not be sustained
Data – Turbo Charger Related – Desired Boost :
Specified boost levels from the
ECU. Values as per actual boost. If the desired boost and actual boost values differ
ECU. Values as per actual boost. If the desired boost and actual boost values differ
select plus for porsche
Advanced User Guide V11.06
5
5
by more than 5% throughout the rev range then it indicates either the settings are
incorrect for the conditions/fuel quality.
If the requested boost value cannot be met, possible reasons for this can be due to
excessive intake temperatures or poor flow in the air intake, the ECU will reduce the
requested boost value.
In doing this the ECU will also reduce the timing, fueling and other values to
safeguard the engine. This reduction of values across the board will seriously limit
the engine’s performance.
Data – Turbo Charger Related – Waste Gate :
incorrect for the conditions/fuel quality.
If the requested boost value cannot be met, possible reasons for this can be due to
excessive intake temperatures or poor flow in the air intake, the ECU will reduce the
requested boost value.
In doing this the ECU will also reduce the timing, fueling and other values to
safeguard the engine. This reduction of values across the board will seriously limit
the engine’s performance.
Data – Turbo Charger Related – Waste Gate :
Waste gate duty cycle measured as
a percentage with 100% being fully open. 100% will be seen in full/high load
a percentage with 100% being fully open. 100% will be seen in full/high load
situations.
Using
Using
select plus adjustability with the Data Acquisition function
Setting Timing Levels
Setting Timing Levels
You can monitor the effects of changing timing settings in the software to better suit
the fuel and conditions at any given time. Revo recommend the following settings as
a guideline, but to set the car up to the most efficient settings please use the
following data analysis guidelines.
Revo Timing Guidelines
Timing Range (Non US) Timing Range (US)
0 = stock timing 0 = stock timing
3-5 = 95ron fuel 1-2 = 91 octane fuel
5-7 = 97/98ron fuel 3-5 = 93 octane fuel
7-9 = premium fuel with octane booster 6-9 = premium fuel with octane or
unleaded race fuel booster or unleaded race fuel
Note: it is always safer to set lower levels if you are unsure of the settings to run.
Analysing Data:
Setting Timing - The best way to set timing up is to start at a relatively low level and
gradually advance the timing monitoring the effects, for example if using 98ron fuel
we recommend running between T5 and T7 it would be advisable to leave the car in
one boost setting and start off monitoring at T3, then build up gradually making sure
the ECU isn’t having to pull too much timing out.
select plus for porsche
the fuel and conditions at any given time. Revo recommend the following settings as
a guideline, but to set the car up to the most efficient settings please use the
following data analysis guidelines.
Revo Timing Guidelines
Timing Range (Non US) Timing Range (US)
0 = stock timing 0 = stock timing
3-5 = 95ron fuel 1-2 = 91 octane fuel
5-7 = 97/98ron fuel 3-5 = 93 octane fuel
7-9 = premium fuel with octane booster 6-9 = premium fuel with octane or
unleaded race fuel booster or unleaded race fuel
Note: it is always safer to set lower levels if you are unsure of the settings to run.
Analysing Data:
Setting Timing - The best way to set timing up is to start at a relatively low level and
gradually advance the timing monitoring the effects, for example if using 98ron fuel
we recommend running between T5 and T7 it would be advisable to leave the car in
one boost setting and start off monitoring at T3, then build up gradually making sure
the ECU isn’t having to pull too much timing out.
select plus for porsche
Advanced User Guide V11.06
6
6
It is worth knowing that generally intake manifold’s don’t deliver the same flow to
each cylinder. With certain cylinders being ‘hotter’ than others timing CF is unlikely to
be linear across each monitored cylinder.
Boost Settings
The Boost level can be set higher or lower than the default setting (Boost 6), altering
the driving characturistics of the car. As with Timing settings ‘bigger is not always
better’. You can potentially run at Boost 9 as long as certain components on the car
do their job at that leve and atmospheric conditions allow. For example running
increased Boost could show up weaknesses in hoses (hose collapse) or Intercooler
inefficiency. Monitoring requested and actual boost pressures, Intake Air Temps, and
Timing CF will help to set a usable level of Boost.
Revo software incorporates enough adjustability to make the most out of bolt-on
engine upgrades.
Boost and Timing settings need to be set to compliment one another, for example an
inefficient IC (intercooler) for a specified boost level will lead to excessively increased
AIT’s and the timing CF will increase.
Setting Incorrect Levels
One of the common problems that can occur when setting up a car with a
each cylinder. With certain cylinders being ‘hotter’ than others timing CF is unlikely to
be linear across each monitored cylinder.
Boost Settings
The Boost level can be set higher or lower than the default setting (Boost 6), altering
the driving characturistics of the car. As with Timing settings ‘bigger is not always
better’. You can potentially run at Boost 9 as long as certain components on the car
do their job at that leve and atmospheric conditions allow. For example running
increased Boost could show up weaknesses in hoses (hose collapse) or Intercooler
inefficiency. Monitoring requested and actual boost pressures, Intake Air Temps, and
Timing CF will help to set a usable level of Boost.
Revo software incorporates enough adjustability to make the most out of bolt-on
engine upgrades.
Boost and Timing settings need to be set to compliment one another, for example an
inefficient IC (intercooler) for a specified boost level will lead to excessively increased
AIT’s and the timing CF will increase.
Setting Incorrect Levels
One of the common problems that can occur when setting up a car with a
select
plus
is setting optimistic levels… if you run at a timing level too high for the given
conditions then you start to rely on the knock sensors and the ECU ‘pulling back’ to
conditions then you start to rely on the knock sensors and the ECU ‘pulling back’ to
safe levels. This is often the case when using an select plus without monitoring
the effects of different settings and can have undesired effects on the running and
components.
If the ECU pulls back due to over optimistic settings then the car won’t run at it’s
optimum level, this being the case altering the settings with the select plus will
have much less effect as the adaptation values will all be at low levels.
Using you can reset the adaptation values by disconnecting the battery for a minute
or so, then reconnecting and turning the ignition on (engine not running) for a similar
time period. Please make sure you know your stereo coding if you are to do this.
Fuel Settings:
One feature of the
the effects of different settings and can have undesired effects on the running and
components.
If the ECU pulls back due to over optimistic settings then the car won’t run at it’s
optimum level, this being the case altering the settings with the select plus will
have much less effect as the adaptation values will all be at low levels.
Using you can reset the adaptation values by disconnecting the battery for a minute
or so, then reconnecting and turning the ignition on (engine not running) for a similar
time period. Please make sure you know your stereo coding if you are to do this.
Fuel Settings:
One feature of the
select plus switch is the ability to adjust the requested air fuel
mixture the engine will burn. It does not control fuel injector on time but rather sets a
computer will compensate for the error allowing the safe operation of the vehicle.
mixture the engine will burn. It does not control fuel injector on time but rather sets a
target air fuel mixture for a richer or leaner burn. Position 0 on the select plus is
equivalent to stock and position 9 will typically yield a 0.87 - 0.91 Lambda for
normally aspirated cars or 0.81 – 0.83 Lamdba for a turbo car depending on the
vehicle and state of tune. If you are not familiar with AFR (air fuel ratio) we
recommend leaving this setting at 9. This adjustment is only a target and will not
force the ECU to comply; if the setting is outside of the safety parameters the
equivalent to stock and position 9 will typically yield a 0.87 - 0.91 Lambda for
normally aspirated cars or 0.81 – 0.83 Lamdba for a turbo car depending on the
vehicle and state of tune. If you are not familiar with AFR (air fuel ratio) we
recommend leaving this setting at 9. This adjustment is only a target and will not
force the ECU to comply; if the setting is outside of the safety parameters the
computer will compensate for the error allowing the safe operation of the vehicle.
#13
11-26-2007, 06:30 PM
Data Logging
I know that Softronic offers a full data logging and all fault code reading and re-setting with their software also as an option. I believe it will work on all Porsches when purchased and not just the tuned car.
#14
11-26-2007, 08:46 PM
Additionally, you can store your data and send it back to Todd, this allows him the ability to customize it with the additional data that you sent to him... win win proposition!
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