With all the clutch posts recently, there are a variety of combinations being installed. I think I may even have another one...

Flywheel: I wanted to keep the dual mass flywheel, as I have tried the LW and really don't care for it. Personally, I find with 700 HP, the Dual Mass is actually pretty responsive - almost like a LW on a stock 415 HP car.

Pressure plate: I had Clutchmasters upgrade my Sachs "999" pressure plate from approximately 2,900 lbs. to 3,700 lbs. clamp force

Disc: This is where I think I have put together something I have not seen written about, yet. I have talked to a lot of tuners about the disc aspect and most have said that the multi-puck, kevlar style are going to hold best, but will give some chatter, even the multi-puck street versions. They have also all said that the GT2 disc I have been running is not quite aggressive enough and marginal at my level and I should consider something designed for more HP. I was about to order a multi-puck disc when I decided to call my old standby, Sam, at the Speed Gallery, as his advice has always been spot on and I have come to value and trust his opinion. He immediately said not to buy the puck style, as it will chatter (as did most other tuners I spoke to) and that there is a Sachs race Engineering disc that is just like the GT2 disc I have and will retain the stock driveability, but with a compound that will hold my power without any problem with the modified pressure plate. Sam went on to say that this combination will not sacrifice the stock-like driveability, I have enjoyed thus far. So I had him get one and next day air it. I'll know soon how it behaves. Here is a picture of it, as you can see, it has metals woven into it - Sachs calls it their "high friction material", full surface disc:

 

Very good post John. I am in the same boat as you are wanting something that will hold 700+ that has the stock driveability. I have my car on the rack right now with the tranny out. Will be doing the EVOMS GT2 slave swap along with a new disc. Let me know asap how you like it!

 

Clutchmasters also has something called Fibertuff that is supposedly stronger than Kevlar. I was talking to Kevin at UMW and he told me he's using the Sprung hub disk *(which is what I now have) with Kevlar and the 999PP with the fulcrum relocation, and it's holding fine on his 700-800HP cars. But that's also using the LWFW. After driving roadcourses with the LWFW, I'll never go back to a dual mass unit, but if I were drag racing I'd defenitely stick with the DM unit.

Mike

 

That kind of looks like the one I just put in. I think it really depends on how light you go on your flywheel. I've heard of some weighing in as light as 8 lbs; that's when I think it becomes an issue. So, if you go light rather than ultra-light it feels just about the same. I think mine weighs in at 13 pounds or so. So far, no change in driving, or noise.

 

What 700-800 HP cars has Kevin at UMW been running these clutches on and
for how long ?????

John, thanks for the informative disc info, as usual you have done your research well.

mK

 

Here the page from the Sach's catalogue. You will see the description as "Organic Special Facing" The part number ends in "973" and that is the one you want just like John is showing in his pic. I spoke to Sach's about this a year or so ago and that is what they recommended to me.

This same upgraded clutch plate is also used on the 997 Turbo/GT2

 

Contact kevin... According to him, He has several in his shop.

Mike

 

Actually, Let me ask a question... What decides that a car is a 700HP car??? If I spin the rollers onmy 100 octane tune at say 580AWHP, does that get me anywhere close???

Again, chat with Kevin. I have no reason not to believe him based on everything I've bought from him to this point, and I'm a very difficult customer to make happy.

I just got my car back today with that clutch in it and I'll give a better write up after I have 400+ miles on it.
Mike

 

Mike, I think that would do it! Todd told me I should be making 580-590 AWHP with my 700 kit on race fuel. Dynos vary, so can you really believe them? That's where the 1/4 mile and 60-130 tests verify the dyno reading. IMO, a true 700 HP car (+/- a few HP) should ET 11.1 or better and trap well into the 130's. 60-130's should be in the 6 second range, I think. I am not certain of this but my understanding would go something like this: If you ET 11.0X or better and trap 133 or better, you probably have about 700HP. If you 60-130 in 6.5 - 6.9, you probably have about 700HP. If you ET 11.3 - 11.6 and trap 128-130, you probably don't have 700HP. If you 60-130 in the 7 second bracket, you probably don't have 700HP.

 

John thanks for the clarification. I think a lot of guys doubt the K16/K24 Hybrid setups, but I fully expect my car will roll 570-580 on the dyno on 100 Octane, and My car had zero traction and I ran 11.24/127mph on my old upsolute tune sith stock wastegate springs. I'm guessing had I been able to hook up, I'd have been in the 10s and running 13Xsmph. I hope to collect some 60-130mph data soon.

Mike

 

Mike,

If you were to hit 10's and 130's, those would be the strongest numbers for a K16/24 I have ever seen...The 10's could possibly be achieved with a perfect hook-up and speed shifting, as ET is very launch and shift dependant, but I seriously doubt 130+ traps. I had the K16/24 and trapped 127mph and I can tell you that trapping at 132-134 is a whole different car. I would be shocked if a K16/24 could do that, but I would love to see you do it. Especially with a SpeedTech exhaust :-)

 

Don,

I got the car back today and it's perfect. Feels just like the non-assisted, OEM set-up, totally predictable, smooth, absolutely zero chatter. Exactly what I wanted. The only difference is that it catches just off the floor and I believe this is due to two reasons. 1) it's brand new and if I recall correctly, the last installation caught early on for a day or so, before settling in at about mid way up the travel on release. 2) When Clutchmasters does the PP treatment, they add as much clamp force as the "disc" allows them to. A skinny disc allows max and a thicker disc allows less, depending on the disc. If they adjust for maximum clamp with a disc that is too thick, they explained the cluch would always be engaged, even with the pedal to the floor.

How it works (according to CM): The Sachs "999" PP is about 2,900 lbs. as it is delivered. Clutchmasters can go to a max of 3,850 lbs. with it. Due to the tickness of the Sachs disc I used, they had to stop at 3,700 Lbs., which Louis said was very close to max and a very good number. They must know their stuff pretty well because with the pedal depressed all the way to the floor, the clutch is fully released, but as soon as you begin to let it up, the engagement begins very quickly from the floor. It seems they maxed out the clamp force while allowing just enough slack, so that the clutch disengages when it's supposed to...

As before, it is very easy and predictable to modulate the power and intuitive to clutch and shift, engagement seems very solid, etc. I upshifted and downshifted repeatedly on my 35 mile drive home and it was as if nothing had changed, except the engagement point was a little lower - no big deal and I think this lower engagement point will become a little higher during the first 500 miles. I am still in the 150 mile break-in stage, so I have not tested the slippage factor. Obviously, I do not expect any slippage, but have not been able to test this aspect yet. I would say this combination is a go, if it's the type of set-up you are after...I am 100% totally satisfied with the result. Sam was right again.

 

JohnD, Based on the fact that this car pulled the front wheels off the ground on Pirelli Pzeros, on 93 octane and that upsolute tune, I'm banking on this being a strong K16/24 setup... Who knows, Maybe that SpeedTech exhaust is giving it the extra Umph!

I've only put 65 miles on my new clutch and your description of the acuation and pickup point is very accurate. As soon as you start to let the clutch off the floor, the car is rolling forward. I stalled it twice when I picked it up from the shop. But it still has the action of an OEM clutch... One thing I noticed last night is my LWFW is louder now, and not consistantly louder... Not sure what's going on there.
Mike

 

Thanks for the update John. I think I am going to be a lot more happy with the new setup! By the way, pulled the clutch out today and looks like either the disc exploded or the throwout bearing failed. The results are pretty ugly.......

 

Boy Thats A Understated!!!!