Appreciate the comment mate, dont know you and should not judge how you run it... but based on your car choices I am guessing you dont drive to the supermarket and home only.

But I cartainly hope a fair bashing on the track by a driving instructor will hopefully shut up some of the non believers. And if Tom feels otherwise, I will feel that at least there has been a post of some substance other than all these guys bagging the car without ever having even driven the damn thing.

 

Again, I'll bring up the concerns and issues I have with the GT-R, that are, in my opinion "intelligent" discussion and concern topics...

IF you don't track on road courses, you'll think this need not apply to you, and you'll LOVE your GT-R. You're wrong, and you should read on...
If you DO track your cars, read on!

Weight is a major factor in the endurance and survivability of a component. Many components make up a car. That statement can not be disputed.

The Turbo has suffered from this weight issue, as evidenced by the "weight loss" thread, and many of our efforts to try and cut our 996TT weights down to near the GT2/GT3 range. Many of us who track our cars have experienced component failures due to the abuse multiple 30 minute sessions put on individual components. This is something you either identify and upgrade, or ignore and suffer failure from.

All this said, Most of our modified 996TTs are running around 3450# with driver and 1/2 tank of fuel. Most of our TTs, in the hands of advanced drivers, are extremely competitive in the groups we run with.

Now, What bothers me about the GTR is exactly what bothers me about my 996TT + over FIVE HUNDRED POUNDS WORTH of more hurdle.

On top of that five hundred pounds, lets talk about that wonderful transmission. That tranny they're using is a big unknown and one thing I'd wonder about exploding under track day conditions, in large part due to that extra FIVE HUNDRED POUNDS.

Here's the other question even the most die hard nissan/ JDM fan has to ask themselves... What if Nissan DID use specialty prepped one off GT-Rs to run all these tests? I mean IF the car runs a 12.6 quarter mile off the show room floor, that's nowhere NEAR the kinda times it should be running, when you look at the ring times, and the times posted elsewhere. What if Nissan is selling you a bill of goods in the name of marketing? It's not like a car manufacturer hasn't lied in the past... It's called MARKETING... Having written a few magazine articles myself, I can tell you that the magazines LIE. They live and die on advertising. Who pays the bulk of AUTO MAG ADVERTISING? Car and car part makers. Simple as that.

What concerns me is that guys are buying this car and buying into the hype with ZERO independant testing from a privateer and zero real world track day data to back it up. Why should you care about that if you don't track your car? Because plain and simple, if it breaks on a track day with an average joe behind the wheel, it will stand a chance of failing on the outter belt north of Atlanta, or on the 405 just north of John Wayne International or wherever you live.

To me, and this is just my "opinion"... I think it's 110% the best thing to ever happen to every other car maker out there. Nissan has kicked open a door and my guess is the rest of the manufacturers are trying to figure out how to walk thru it. They're waiting to see the warts this car has, and it will have quite a few. You simply can not have a 4000# car do all the things it's supposed to be able to do. I don't dispute it's ability to be a strong performer. However, can it be repeatable and reliable. And most important to me, can I take it to the track and beat on it as hard as I can a Porsche 911TT with the same reliable and dependable results. If it can, then great.

As I stated earlier, I was in line for one of these cars... Went down, tried to get what I thought would be a fair price... They wouldn't come down below $93K With so many of my questions above unanswered, I walked away as said "F-that, I know what my 996TT lacks and where to improve it. I don't know dick about this car, and neither does the rest of the buying and modding public".

Like I said, to ME, this is where my doubts and concerns lie when people without personal first hand experience start talking about this car. I've yet to meet a single private owner who has tracked one of these to give me honest feedback. All we get in threads like this are two sides with two opinions about a platform both sides know nothing about first hand and only have what the press has fed us to go on... With the exceptions of the one owner in this thread and the one test drive. So if my comments seem harsh, they are. I want facts first hand from a private owner and I want that review to be track based. I also want to know the person's previous driving experience and what other platforms they base their comparison off of.

Mike

 

well we are about to see how the GT-R will do in an endurance race b/c there is one set to run in a 24hour race.

also if you read that car and driver article(closely) that just came out. they didnt not mention using LC in the GT-R. but they mentioned usign it in in the GT2. also, check out the last issue when they tested the GT-R. they were very detailed in saying they used LC even stating at what rpms they car launched at.

that didnt take place in this issue. the times the GT-R run of 4.1 0-60 and 12.6 1/4 are totally inline with the times Motor trends got out of the GT-R when running it WITHOUT LC. they stated that running the GT-R without LC you are giong to hit 60 in 4secs and do the 1/4 bbetween 12.3 and 12.6.

also look at the stats of the GT-R going around Buttonwillow. the GT-R was consistently faster than the Z06 around the track. except for two parts of the track where they both tied in mphs. but the GT-R was 2.3-7.7 mph faster than the z06. so how do you explain the GT-R only being 6 tenths faster than the Z06 at the end? it looks like what happened from dig. which is no LC being used where the Z06 was able to make up time on the GT-R, a differnce of atleast 2.6 secs if the GT-R would have launched 0-60 in 3.5secs.

you mentioned that none of the test and reviews of the GT-R have been independent. my question for you is where have you been for the past few months with all these independent tests and comparos that have been conducted using the GT-R? or are you cherry picking.

you are going to tell me thatyou have never bought your porsche based on the test and reviews conducted on it? i highly doubt b/c no porsche dealer is going to allow you to take their car and track it for a test drive so you can see if its actually the real deal or not.

you said that can mod your TT whereit lacks in performance to the GT-R. well that means you are playing catch up to the GT-R in stock form. so what happens with the GT-R is modded? well that Gap opens back up against your TT.

if you look around, there are GT-R's to be had for 5k-10k over msrp. some have been lucky to get GT-Rs at MSRP. now that the cars are hitting the road and living to the hype, it maybe alittle harder to find a GT-R at msrp.

either way. there has only been maybe three test where the GT-R has produced lower then expected times. some of those test looks to have produced times based on what can be explained as NOT using LC like the most recent C&D article.

if you dont like the GT-R cool. but i dont understand howyou have the word or authority to say all the test conducted even as recently as TOp Gear's is a lie. and the car is a "ringer"

we have seen three write ups atempting to say the GT-Rs test have been ringers. if this is so, why arent there more than three?

let alone the cars just started hitting the road last weeka. do you honestly think people are going to take them to the track right away? the car still has to be broken in

 

What part of "independant" privately OWNED testing that I refer to above did you stumble past?

You really don't get it do you?

You know how many Porsche 996TTs I drove when I bought mine??? ONE. MINE, on the test drive that lasted about 30 minutes. And it wasn't stock. The "sales" guy knew me from doing track events. You ASSume a whole lot there, and your username is really starting to "fit".

My car was modified when I bought it. It was far from stock. It came from the dealer with dyno sheets showing 510wheel HP... Like I said in my previous post, Kudos to Nissan for building it. It's certainly faster than a bone stock 996TT... Again, what about all the other info I posted above, trying to keep it "intelligent?"

Reality is that you have nothing to bring to this discussion other than what you've read in magazines and heard on TV shows... Nothing first hand. Nothing intelligent of your own... Nada, zilch, zippo... Nice going there... Uh, Tool.

Mike

 

Oak, give me a call and I'll go with you and trade in my 2. Maybe we can ge a combo deal.

 

Tool has convinced me with his intellect and his indepth knowledge on all things automotive...

I'm with you two, Oak and 9Eleven, Maybe we can get deeper discounts if we trade in 4 instead of 3?

Mike

 

new road and track

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?se...article_id=6939

 

Tool, are you old enough to own one? Do you own one? Or are you basing all of your information on car rags?

 

I'm sure you were speaking mainly for the roadcourse, but since you mentioned quarter mile times I thought this may be useful. Here is what I had posted in the 997TT section regarding a new GTR owner taking his own car to his local 1/4 mile track:

https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/1960399-post40.html

"Here is a post from another forum where a new owner took his car to the track:

http://www.3si.org/forum/f1/gtr-my-local-dragway-426516/

According to the original poster:

Quote:

It ran all night, like 10-15 runs.

The trap speeds look pretty close to what the early cars were getting. Also interesting, the wide variation in ET's shows that the car really doesn't launch itself perfect every single time despite what many have said. So as with most races from a dig (such as the Z06 race) driver does still play an important role. On that note, the Top Gear results are pretty impressive."

I agree with much of what you said about the weight. But I think it will factor more in with tire/pad wear as opposed to outright mechanical failures (if the tranny holds up of course).

 

that's my plan I welcome all new cars and technology that advance the art and science of driving and think the Nissan will be awesome!

• Home Page
• Track Times
• 2008 Calendar
• Member Login
• About CMS
• Join CMS
• Event Pictures
• In-car track video
• Tips & Information
• Formats & Groups
• Pricing & Fees
• Discussion Forum
• Partner Links
• Contact CMS staff

Sebring Raceway, 3.7 mile, 17 turn 12-Hour Circuit
Saturday, 8/23/2008
Sebring: TracQuest format. SATURDAY ONLY

Course: 3.7 mile, 17 turn 12-Hour Circuit
Format: TracQuest Format

REGISTRATION STATUS: Accepting registrations:
* for solo drivers: 39 openings remaining
* Novice registration is full. To be added to the waiting list, please email your request.
Total Registration is limited to 90 participants






Event Roster
Waiting Novice1)Fabiano VMiami, FLBlack 2008 Porsche Carrera
Provisional Solo1)William BPotomac, MDBlack 1991 Porsche 964Paid2)Anthony DRuskin, FLBLUE 2004 VOLKSWAGEN R32 Paid3)Stephen Oorlando, FLblack 2006 pontiac gtoPaid4)Robert RMiami Beach, FLsilver 1999 BMW M3Paid5)Luciano RKey Biscayne, FLWhite 1983 Porsche 911 SCPaid6)Steven WSarasota, FLRubino 2005 Ferrari F430Paid7)Roger WSarasota, FLBlack 2007 Porsche Cayman SPaid8)S. Kent WTampa, FLBlack 2003 BMW 330CiPaid
Novice1)Gerald ABonita Springs, FLred 2008 Nissan GTRPaid2)Johan ATampa, FLRed 2005 BMW M3Paid3)David BWinter Springs, FLGPW 2007 Honda S2000Paid4)John DGainesville, FLBlack 2007 Infiniti G35Paid5)Chris Dkissimmee, FL1993 Mazda MiataPaid6)Mark Dkissimmee, FL1993 Mazda MiataPaid7)Andrew FBoca Raton, FLSilver 2005 Porsche 997SPaid8)Richard HAvon Park, FLBlue 2005 Mini Cooper Cooper SPaid9)Mario KBrandon, FLMerlot Mica 1995 Mazda MiataPaid10)Steven KOrlando, FLBlue 2006 Chevrolet CorvettePaid11)Douglas MAtlantic Beach, FLBlack 2008 Corvette ZO6Paid12)Jared MRiverview, FLSilver 1997 Chevrolet CorvettePaid13)Brian RPonte Vedra Bch, FL2003 Porsche 911 CarraraPaid14)Craig RHypoluxo, FLBlack 2008 porsche caymanPaid15)Ivan Slargo, FLblack 1990 honda crx siPaid16)Mikael SSeffner, FL1993 BMW 325iPaid17)James WOviedo, FLRed 2004 MINI SPaid18)Stephen WLakeland, FLSilver 2006 BMW M3Paid19)Michael XWinter Park, FL2005 Nightfall Blue Lotus Elise #26Paid
Master Instructor1)Glen BMerritt Island, FLBlue 1999 Panoz GTWC #99Paid2)Joshua FDavie, FLWhite 1993 Mazda MiataPaid3)Rob LTitusville, FLSilver 2000 Porsche 911 #55Paid
Intermediate Solo1)Howard ATampa, FLHenna Red 1988 BMW M3Paid2)Eric ABoca Raton, FLSilver 2004 Porsche Boxster SPaid3)Scott BOrlando, FLwhite 1992 Honda CivicPaid4)Mical FAlva, FL2004 Volkswagen .:R32Paid5)Bob GTampa, FLSilver 2006 BMW M3Paid6)Brad GLargo, FLBlack 1998 BMW M3Paid7)Shaun GVenice, FLRed 2006 Chevrolet CorvettePaid8)Mike GNaples, FLGrey 2003 Mazdaspeed ProtegePaid9)Brian KFt. Myers, FL2006 Chevrolet Z06 CorvettePaid10)John MSarasota, FLWhite 1992 Mazda MiataPaid11)Carlos MWeston, FLRed 1996 Acura NSXPaid12)Miles MWellington, FL2006 Chevrolet Corvette Z06Paid13)Carlos PTampa, FL2007 Chevrolet CorvettePaid14)Andrew RDelray Beach, FLAtlas Grey 2007 Porsche 997Paid15)Kevin RPALM HARBOR, FL2005 PORSCHE CARRERA 997 SPaid16)Quinn RBonita Springs, FLWhite 2007 Porsche 997 TurboPaid17)Clyde SOdessa, FLBlack 2006 CHEVY CORVETTE Z06Paid18)Nick TParkland, FL2008 Porsche Cayman S PE1Paid19)Lucas WOrlando, FLBRG 2001 Mazda MiataPaid20)Mark WPALM HARBOR, FLred 2007 FERRARI 430 CHALLENGEPaid
Instructor1)Mel AHudson, FLRed 1988 BMW M3Paid2)Jeffrey AMarietta, GARed-Blk 1992 Acura NSX #30Paid3)Philipe Amiramar, FLwhite -red 1991 Mazda rx-7Paid4)Rui Amiramar, FLred-white 1991 mazda rx7Paid5)Bob AMerritt Island, FLBlue 1999 Panoz GTWCPaid6)Mike BPalm City, FLSilver 2007 Porsche Cayman SPaid7)Bruce BSt Petersburg, FLred 2001 Porsche Carrera CoupePaid8)Ernesto BAventura, FLSunset 2006 Nissan 350ZPaid9)Pedro CLongwood, FLBlack 1996 dodge neon #57Owes10)Michael CApollo Beach, FLWhite 2007 Porsche 997SPaid11)Rod CTemple Terrace, FLSeal Grey 2002 Porsche 911Paid12)Shawn CParkland, FLBlack 2006 Lotus ExigePaid13)Patrick DFort Myers, FLSilver 1999 BMW M3Paid14)Charles Dbrooksville, FLwhite 2006 stohr WF1Paid15)James DPort St Lucie, FL2007 Chevy Z06 CorvettePaid16)David HClearwater, FLRed 1992 Mazda MiataPaid17)John JMaitland, FL2003 Porsche 996 Carrera 4SPaid18)Pedroluis JMiami, FLSilver 2003 Nissan 350ZPaid19)Tom KTampa, FL2002 Porsche 996 twin turboPaid20)Michael KFort Myers, FLblack 2005 Porsche Carrera SPaid21)Mike MDebary, FLChamp White 1993 Honda Civic #200Paid

 

"If you're going to be honest, a street encounter in any of these cars is going to come down to the driver."


Even more so on the track. Obviously the same driver has got to drive both cars and then check lap times.

 

Mike, I think you need to take a deep breath and consider some of what you are carrying on with here.
Evolutions of the GTR have been around for nearly two decades, each evolution has always been faster than the competing Porsche Turbo of the day. Car enthusiasts have been tracking and modifying these GTR's since day one, road cars with 1000plus HP, qtr mile cars doing 8 secs etc and been around for ages. The GTR was originally developed to win the Bathurst 1000 (this is not a US based race so I also assume a lot of posters here are unaware that it is arguably the greatest touring car race in the world) which it did easily in 1990 and 1991 until it was banned to let other manufacturers have a chance to get back into the race. The GTR has a long and successful racing pedigree both as a production car and as a full race car.
The fact that the car has not been sold until now in the US and that the majority of the US 6speeders have never heard of the car nor had any experience with it is sad but many of us from other parts of the world have had a lot of hands on experience with the various evolutions of the car.
You can continue on saying that it is over rated, to heavy, unreliable, test cars are not representative etc but I guarantee you are going to be left with a lot of egg on your face..........

 

In my last job I had a guy who found out I drove a pcar. He would always come around and quote magazine articles for the GTR. He was fervent about it even walking by my office and just saying GTR as he walked by. He did not own a GTR or even a nice car and probably never would. One day I asked him why he kept doing that and why he quoted articles to me all the time. He said because I just want to irritate you because you have a 911. Why are you on here?

 

Hey guys... i just got my first 996TT earlier this year... and honestly, i was trying to decide if i wanted to get a used 996TT and put some mods into it, or wait for a new GTR... and although I was incredibly impressed with the numbers that magazines were putting out there for the GTR, I just wanted this porsche so badly... so I made my purchase knowing full well that the porsche was going to be considerably older, didn't have any of the cool electronic gadgets, and very possibly may be outperformed by the GTR. Everyone has their own opinion of course but I just think the 911 is such a beautiful and classic car... classic being key. You just don't ever look at a porsche and think, thats a fckn ugly car. There's a very specific amount of pride in driving this car. I drive his car everyday to work and back, i've raced it a little bit, I hope to get some track time into it eventually...i just absolutely love driving it period... if the GTR happens to be the real deal, that's really great... congrats to Nissan for putting out a fine product. Would I regret my purchase? Never. Did I buy my car for the sole purpose of racing GTRs everyday??? I really could care less... I didn't buy it to be a GTR beater... As most of the other porsche owners in this forum, I love my car, it's the funnest and most beautiful car i've ever owned and thats what matters to me. Tool, I can only hope you have that experience with your new GTR... you are buying one right???? Because you really should, seems like you're in love with that car.

 

That has not been my experience at all. I worked on one of the magazine stories on the GT-R (and no, I am not going to publicly say which one) and that is how I got to drive it back in February (and a number of other cars over the years) and I can tell you no one says; "well Nissan is advertising so lets fudge their times or let them win this comparison test."
Assuming your theory, seeing how most manufacturers (including Porsche) are regular advertisers in the big magazines, how are they supposed to show this so called "bias" without pissing off the others and losing their advertising dollars?


As for the reliability, yes, it is an unproven factor, but it is not like the Japanese have a reputation for building cars that break a lot.
To add, when I had the car, Nissan was doing tire testing and brake testing, they were running three cars around Reno Fernley for hours on end for a couple of days straight with their test driver Toshio Suzuki doing very hard laps and nothing broke (they were concerned about the brakes overheating though and kept checking temps, but it did not seem to be a problem). Kazutoshi Mizuno was there too, I had lunch with him, nice guy.
Multiple car magazines have also tested the car relentlessly on the track and then went off and drove the cars hundreds of miles on the roads without a hiccup.

Could Nissan have provided magazines with Ringers? Sure, but I tend to doubt it, the PR nightmare that would ensue if they got caught would be far worse than the benefits of doing such a thing. It would ruin their credibility for years and cost them millions.
And how would you explain Nissan supplying C/D with a car that was way off the pace of the other GT-R's they tested? why wouldn't they just give them another "ringer"?

I drove the car at rather high speeds (saw 130pmh at one point), I also got a very hairy ride in it with a driver who is better than I and I have no doubts about its performance, there is no question there. But from a fun to drive and passion point of view and for the reasons that Orlando333 made in his earlier post about how the car feels, the car doesn't do anything for me. And these issues are far more important than lap times IMO.
Personally, I think the V-spec could be a bit more interesting and not because of it's added performance, but because it sounds a bit more hardcore and exciting

I find it funny how the fanboys on either side of the argument just seem to regurgitate the track numbers, they never discuss how the car feels or how it makes you feel, it's always "this car is x number of seconds faster than that car!" Get a life! What race are you in that having a ROAD car that is a few seconds faster around a track (in the hands of a professional driver no less) than a bunch of already ridiculously fast cars is somehow better? Are you really going to feel the difference? If being fastest around a track is so important, buy a race car and put your money where your mouth is
There is more to cars than just speed.