Best INTERCOOLERS - PLUG & PLAY
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Many comments on cost here-- I cannot see how what the cost is has anything to do with the efficiency of an intercooler. Ultimately I want to know what is possible--then what I can afford or are prepared to pay to acquire whatever level of performance .
What compromises are being made and where any given choice fits in that scheme of things are the important things to me .If Secan can achieve things that others cannot- then surely it is in everyone's interests to know that- regardless of wether any individual thinks the cost to high or ridiculous.
What compromises are being made and where any given choice fits in that scheme of things are the important things to me .If Secan can achieve things that others cannot- then surely it is in everyone's interests to know that- regardless of wether any individual thinks the cost to high or ridiculous.
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Cost is an issue. why would you pay 18k for something that has no proven performance? 24hours? so what? Durability is not an issue. I have seen Evoms IC's up close and quality is top notch. I am sure that Awe and the others are up there as well.
why would you pay 5 times more for something that has no proven advantage. In fact on "another" thread "somewhere else", Awe's IC's performed just as well as secan on a very limited test. Not scientific, but like I said earlier, if I am even going to consider an 18k set of IC's there had better be a comparison writeup that comes with them, comparing all the other popular IC's on the market.
If I wanted to pay a lot for something that doesn't work, I would have bought a ferrari 348 new
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Look up the data on Rennteam, it's there. There is an IAT chart with data logging.
The SECANs are proven to work, that is a fact. Whether you want to pretend that AWE and EVOMS ICs are just as good or better is up to you.
Sounds like we need to do a comparison to put this issue to rest, plain and simple.
The SECANs are proven to work, that is a fact. Whether you want to pretend that AWE and EVOMS ICs are just as good or better is up to you.
Sounds like we need to do a comparison to put this issue to rest, plain and simple.
You can pretend secans are worth 6 times the cost, but you have no proof that they are. There is no comparisons on the road at the same time. Which is my point. I never said that Secans were not good, as I am sure they are top quality. The point you are not getting is that if you wish to wate your money on some thing that provides you very little performance advantage go ahead. Obviously, they are not much better than what someone made up on their own huh?
RS have road tested my car with the tuning box on and apparently the tuning box is working the VTGs too hard. RS say stock they work at 20% (of what I'm not certain) they say that they go up to 40% but that the tuning box had the vtgs working at 55% and on the autobahn near top speed they saw 78DegC intake with my intercoolers....
They said they were surprised how high this IAT was since my cores looked good so they swapped over to a set of Secans and went out again....... they saw 75degC IAT with the Secan so basically the tuning box is super heating the IATs but of cours ethis means that for this test my intercoolers are working nearly as good as Secans...... I think I am fairly safe in saying to expect some RS Tuning engines to be sporting a set in the near future
My engine is now on the engine dyno and will be there for a few more weeks since their ECU electronics guy is off for 2 week holiday tomorrow
They said they were surprised how high this IAT was since my cores looked good so they swapped over to a set of Secans and went out again....... they saw 75degC IAT with the Secan so basically the tuning box is super heating the IATs but of cours ethis means that for this test my intercoolers are working nearly as good as Secans...... I think I am fairly safe in saying to expect some RS Tuning engines to be sporting a set in the near future
My engine is now on the engine dyno and will be there for a few more weeks since their ECU electronics guy is off for 2 week holiday tomorrow
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Spoken like a real amateur. Of course SECAN has few other customers so they lobbied Porsche Motorsport to get the contract despite the fact that they are a French company who sells primarily to aerospace and F1 teams.
You obviously have little to no real experience with Porsche Motorsport, or endurance racing. Yes, I do have experience in working with race suppliers and race teams. Do you?
You obviously have little to no real experience with Porsche Motorsport, or endurance racing. Yes, I do have experience in working with race suppliers and race teams. Do you?
instead of acting like a child and wipping out to see who's is bigger, why don't you bring some real world comparisons done on the same car under the same conditions. If you are "the guy" on the other thread, then you even state that you do nothing with your car, but you want the best!! right?
from your other thread:
For the record
We tried AWE coolers on Proto upgraded VTG's and we saw excellent performance from that Combo.
All i can tell u that the the acceleration numbers
0-100km/h 3.0sec
100-200km/h 6.0sec
200-300km/h 13.5sec
0-300 23sec
We saw almost same numbers on 18C and 45C (in Dubai ) temp which means those AWE coolers works awesome
We tried AWE coolers on Proto upgraded VTG's and we saw excellent performance from that Combo.
All i can tell u that the the acceleration numbers
0-100km/h 3.0sec
100-200km/h 6.0sec
200-300km/h 13.5sec
0-300 23sec
We saw almost same numbers on 18C and 45C (in Dubai ) temp which means those AWE coolers works awesome
If that is true then they are working better than Secan.....With Secan At 18degC you would see 33DegC max IAT which would mean the engine maintains max timing and boost and at 45degC you would see 60 degC IAT which would result in the Motronic retarding the ignition and a loss in hp, maybe 50hp ?
Doesn't make sense, can you bring some real data to the thread please ?
Doesn't make sense, can you bring some real data to the thread please ?
Oh and as for racing, where have you seen the secans used. I did not know that porsche had installed turbos in their GT2 race car class, gee I thought it was just the 4L RSR motor. Silly me
I don't think anyone in here has said secans are not top notch. The issue is cost versus performance gain. Secans may be smaller and provide the same or slightly better efficiency than the larger units sold elsewhere, but unless you have a veyron it just isn't worth it.
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Spoken like a real amateur. Of course SECAN has few other customers so they lobbied Porsche Motorsport to get the contract despite the fact that they are a French company who sells primarily to aerospace and F1 teams.
You obviously have little to no real experience with Porsche Motorsport, or endurance racing. Yes, I do have experience in working with race suppliers and race teams. Do you?
You obviously have little to no real experience with Porsche Motorsport, or endurance racing. Yes, I do have experience in working with race suppliers and race teams. Do you?
Well maybe I should have gone with that setup because there is no doubt that is was awesome value and was definately fast..... but, well I am a sucker for the "real thing", whilst I don't race on tracks or even do 300kph runs back to back day after day I just like to have the best available.
GTDeux, for a $15-18,000 set of intercoolers, I want to see 3 test numbers, I'll assume you are running 1.2+bar as most of us that would even consider these, would be.
1. Inlet Ambient Air Temp, this is the "now" inlet temp (send a link of your chart on rennteam?)
2. Boost Loss across IC's, all IC's have some, if minimal boost loss
3. Cooling graph (time vs temp) of the intercoolers after 5min of WOT, different IC's will cool down at different rates.
I wont get into a pissing match with you, but I, and many others do expect to see repeatable real world numbers if you are going to peddle your wares here. The rest of these numbers can be trapped with a simple durametric as well, you will need to do some excel work for the time vs temp but I'll give you the beenfit of a doubt.
With most of us that have limited budgets including 1BadGT2 (relative, of course), we all want ROI (Return on Investment). Prove to us that $15-18000 IC's will give ROI over current marketed IC's. Porsche Motorsport cars also use lexan and polycarbonate windscreens, synchro trannies, center bolt wheels etc... but all ROI prohibitive for non professional race teams.
Im going to disagree with you on your "A properly set up 4-way race suspension with RSR geometry enables a less talented driver to work half as hard as you do, and still be faster..." comment... in reality, this actually allows a very taleneted driver the ability to drive at a higher level, a less talented driver would have allot of issues driving a very well setup car.
And last but not least...like PRCHE951 mentioned, I dont know of any 99xturbo raced at the GT levels where a secan or any other IC would be used.
1. Inlet Ambient Air Temp, this is the "now" inlet temp (send a link of your chart on rennteam?)
2. Boost Loss across IC's, all IC's have some, if minimal boost loss
3. Cooling graph (time vs temp) of the intercoolers after 5min of WOT, different IC's will cool down at different rates.
I wont get into a pissing match with you, but I, and many others do expect to see repeatable real world numbers if you are going to peddle your wares here. The rest of these numbers can be trapped with a simple durametric as well, you will need to do some excel work for the time vs temp but I'll give you the beenfit of a doubt.
With most of us that have limited budgets including 1BadGT2 (relative, of course), we all want ROI (Return on Investment). Prove to us that $15-18000 IC's will give ROI over current marketed IC's. Porsche Motorsport cars also use lexan and polycarbonate windscreens, synchro trannies, center bolt wheels etc... but all ROI prohibitive for non professional race teams.
Im going to disagree with you on your "A properly set up 4-way race suspension with RSR geometry enables a less talented driver to work half as hard as you do, and still be faster..." comment... in reality, this actually allows a very taleneted driver the ability to drive at a higher level, a less talented driver would have allot of issues driving a very well setup car.
And last but not least...like PRCHE951 mentioned, I dont know of any 99xturbo raced at the GT levels where a secan or any other IC would be used.
Last edited by DEEPBLUE; Sep 25, 2009 at 09:54 AM.
Curious, what are your other mods?
I remember when Porsche raced with turbos, was a quite a while ago.
I'm sure the IC's are "good enough for anyone", I am just questioning the value for what 99.999% of the non-professional enthusiast market.
6speed bling drag racers? That's about as presumptuous as my calling you a jackass who brags about $15,000 intercoolers or someone who thinks "a race tuned suspension enables a less talented driver to work half as hard...and still be faster". The word poser cometh to mind. (You wear the Porsche members only jacket and Porsche design sunglasses, dont you?).
I remember when Porsche raced with turbos, was a quite a while ago.
I'm sure the IC's are "good enough for anyone", I am just questioning the value for what 99.999% of the non-professional enthusiast market.
6speed bling drag racers? That's about as presumptuous as my calling you a jackass who brags about $15,000 intercoolers or someone who thinks "a race tuned suspension enables a less talented driver to work half as hard...and still be faster". The word poser cometh to mind. (You wear the Porsche members only jacket and Porsche design sunglasses, dont you?)
.I am not "peddling" anything. I am just a very, very happy customer.
And I can assure you that I am NOT Toby. Though I do admire him for all his work and due diligence on the subject!!! And I do plan to check out his custom ICs for my own car.
SECANS were used on the 993 GT2 EVO racecars circa late 1990's. It is still a Porsche Motorsport part for these cars. Are you too young to remember the days when Porsche used to race Turbocharged 911s? Then rules change, FIA and ACO then changes the class names to confuse people, the GT3 class became GT2 and GT2 became GT1.
As for more recent efforts, Jurgen Alzen campaigned a 996 Turbo for the ADAC 24Hours of Nurburgring with a full engine build by RS Tuning and using SECAN intercoolers. This car actually set pole and a record time (6:58) with only 0.9bar of boost! I know the Alzen car is "SLOW" by 6Speed standards and the bling drag racers on this board, so sorry to use it as an example!
The net of this discussion is very, very simple. SECANS have been proven to keep IATs within a 20degC range with minimal pressure drop under 24Hour race conditions in Germany to Dubai, lap after lap. It is race proven, others are not.
And that's how I buy my products. Race tested and proven under the highest stress conditions is good enough for me. Quarter and TX Mile proven, fun and interesting as they are... not so much.
Perhaps one of the most knowledgable contributors on this board, Jean, summed it up best 3 years ago about SECANs versus everyone else:
And I can assure you that I am NOT Toby. Though I do admire him for all his work and due diligence on the subject!!! And I do plan to check out his custom ICs for my own car.
SECANS were used on the 993 GT2 EVO racecars circa late 1990's. It is still a Porsche Motorsport part for these cars. Are you too young to remember the days when Porsche used to race Turbocharged 911s? Then rules change, FIA and ACO then changes the class names to confuse people, the GT3 class became GT2 and GT2 became GT1.
As for more recent efforts, Jurgen Alzen campaigned a 996 Turbo for the ADAC 24Hours of Nurburgring with a full engine build by RS Tuning and using SECAN intercoolers. This car actually set pole and a record time (6:58) with only 0.9bar of boost! I know the Alzen car is "SLOW" by 6Speed standards and the bling drag racers on this board, so sorry to use it as an example!
The net of this discussion is very, very simple. SECANS have been proven to keep IATs within a 20degC range with minimal pressure drop under 24Hour race conditions in Germany to Dubai, lap after lap. It is race proven, others are not.
And that's how I buy my products. Race tested and proven under the highest stress conditions is good enough for me. Quarter and TX Mile proven, fun and interesting as they are... not so much.
Perhaps one of the most knowledgable contributors on this board, Jean, summed it up best 3 years ago about SECANs versus everyone else:
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I am not "peddling" anything. I am just a very, very happy customer.
And I can assure you that I am NOT Toby. Though I do admire him for all his work and due diligence on the subject!!! And I do plan to check out his custom ICs for my own car.
SECANS were used on the 993 GT2 EVO racecars circa late 1990's. It is still a Porsche Motorsport part for these cars. Are you too young to remember the days when Porsche used to race Turbocharged 911s? Then rules change, FIA and ACO then changes the class names to confuse people, the GT3 class became GT2 and GT2 became GT1.
As for more recent efforts, Jurgen Alzen campaigned a 996 Turbo for the ADAC 24Hours of Nurburgring with a full engine build by RS Tuning and using SECAN intercoolers. This car actually set pole and a record time (6:58) with only 0.9bar of boost! I know the Alzen car is "SLOW" by 6Speed standards and the bling drag racers on this board, so sorry to use it as an example!
The net of this discussion is very, very simple. SECANS have been proven to keep IATs within a 20degC range with minimal pressure drop under 24Hour race conditions in Germany to Dubai, lap after lap. It is race proven, others are not.
And that's how I buy my products. Race tested and proven under the highest stress conditions is good enough for me. Quarter and TX Mile proven, fun and interesting as they are... not so much.
Perhaps one of the most knowledgable contributors on this board, Jean, summed it up best 3 years ago about SECANs versus everyone else:
And I can assure you that I am NOT Toby. Though I do admire him for all his work and due diligence on the subject!!! And I do plan to check out his custom ICs for my own car.
SECANS were used on the 993 GT2 EVO racecars circa late 1990's. It is still a Porsche Motorsport part for these cars. Are you too young to remember the days when Porsche used to race Turbocharged 911s? Then rules change, FIA and ACO then changes the class names to confuse people, the GT3 class became GT2 and GT2 became GT1.
As for more recent efforts, Jurgen Alzen campaigned a 996 Turbo for the ADAC 24Hours of Nurburgring with a full engine build by RS Tuning and using SECAN intercoolers. This car actually set pole and a record time (6:58) with only 0.9bar of boost! I know the Alzen car is "SLOW" by 6Speed standards and the bling drag racers on this board, so sorry to use it as an example!
The net of this discussion is very, very simple. SECANS have been proven to keep IATs within a 20degC range with minimal pressure drop under 24Hour race conditions in Germany to Dubai, lap after lap. It is race proven, others are not.
And that's how I buy my products. Race tested and proven under the highest stress conditions is good enough for me. Quarter and TX Mile proven, fun and interesting as they are... not so much.
Perhaps one of the most knowledgable contributors on this board, Jean, summed it up best 3 years ago about SECANs versus everyone else:
I posted earlier that there was someone on another thread that had run their AWE IC's and performed as good as Secan. The someone who made their own IC's did nearly as well. How is it that spomeone with no Aerospace background can make IC's nearly as good as secan? That was Toby who posted and I quoted him above.
Would love to see a test comparing all of them Really, 10 hot laps around VIR in July would be perfect. Think about it, early 90's IC technology and no one has matched it? c'mon! I seriously doubt that. The way technology is taken and modified in this arena, that one is hard to believe.
Secan
AWE
Evoms
Protomo
Markski
Blown6
AP
GT2
Stock
Also, your little snide remark about drag racing shows you know little about it. Go to a drag race and run your car for an afternoon and then tell me there is no heat soak problems. By the way, seems like 9ff likes to drag race as well.
oh and sorry for mistaking you for toby, both of you posted on both forums at nearly the same time this AM so I just naturally guessed it might be you.
Nice mods (sincerely), cant wait to read more about them. I have a few 997GT2 and RSR parts myself :-) Not quite ready for the engine build....going to drive it and get the value out of it. 
Agreed about the GT1 class as well as turbos in F1, was more exciting if you ask me with turbos, although engine technology arguably wouldnt be what it is today.
I've probably worn more nomex in a short priod of my life than most people see in their lifetime. The Stand 21's are nice, Schuberth makes a hell of a helmet too but my Bell K1 fits very well...and a hell of a <cough cough> value :-)
Yes, I go for the best for my money, but not at a compromise, everything I have done is for purpose within what I plan to do. Some people would cringe at the $15k tranny I just built, whereas a $4-5k rebuild does just fine, but I wanted external cooling, internal oil pump and regearing among other things.
However like others have said, there are allot of moving dynamic real world difference parts in that box, IC's make a difference, but not like a clutch, gearbox, suspension or even headers and exhaust. Is it something to consider? Sure if you drive like a bat out of hell, which most of us do, be it drag or track, especially in places like TX, NM, AZ and other places.
Agreed about the GT1 class as well as turbos in F1, was more exciting if you ask me with turbos, although engine technology arguably wouldnt be what it is today.
I've probably worn more nomex in a short priod of my life than most people see in their lifetime. The Stand 21's are nice, Schuberth makes a hell of a helmet too but my Bell K1 fits very well...and a hell of a <cough cough> value :-)
Yes, I go for the best for my money, but not at a compromise, everything I have done is for purpose within what I plan to do. Some people would cringe at the $15k tranny I just built, whereas a $4-5k rebuild does just fine, but I wanted external cooling, internal oil pump and regearing among other things.
However like others have said, there are allot of moving dynamic real world difference parts in that box, IC's make a difference, but not like a clutch, gearbox, suspension or even headers and exhaust. Is it something to consider? Sure if you drive like a bat out of hell, which most of us do, be it drag or track, especially in places like TX, NM, AZ and other places.
I have a set of specially configured KKK VTGs, a complete array of 997 RSR suspension parts, and some other goodies. I'm working with a famous race engine builder to build me a mild motor.
Porsche hasn't raced with Turbos because of the changes in rules which do not make forced induction practical for racing in GT1 class.
Sorry, no Porsche members only jacket or Porsche Design sunglasses unfortunately. Think more Nomex jumpsuit and a Stand 21 helmet, or do you even know what that is?
The difference in philosophy between me and you is you think "value for money," I say why waste your time and just buy the best.
Porsche hasn't raced with Turbos because of the changes in rules which do not make forced induction practical for racing in GT1 class.
Sorry, no Porsche members only jacket or Porsche Design sunglasses unfortunately. Think more Nomex jumpsuit and a Stand 21 helmet, or do you even know what that is?
The difference in philosophy between me and you is you think "value for money," I say why waste your time and just buy the best.
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Actually that is a good idea. A friend porsche mechanic was thinking about doing this. It would take some replumbing but it could be done. Would be interesting to see the results.
I would like to put on the secans on my car and see how they do... a 500 hp 2400 lbs. race P car has nothing to do with a 3300 lbs P car doing 1000 rwhp at twice the of a stock P car...
They probably will hold up but that is not the point... the point is that my do pretty well and they are only $3K...
mark
They probably will hold up but that is not the point... the point is that my do pretty well and they are only $3K...
mark
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2001 996TT 3.6L and stock ECU
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Mark and others-- I have the utmost respect for what you are ALL trying to do--so please do not see what I say in the negative.
Any supplier that purports to sell a product should expect to supply some supporting data. Regardless of the cost- knowing what is possible can have a big effect on what we all think is good value-- and discarding a concept as too expensive is not exactly rational.
Realistically a product at a 1/4 the cost and 2/3rds the efficiency may well be adequete for most end users--- what is important is to understand what compromises are being made with those choices.
To do something usefull-- lets use the list of types of intercoolers above to publish some common data( on the one list) and find a set of standardised measurements taht can help us all.
Any supplier that purports to sell a product should expect to supply some supporting data. Regardless of the cost- knowing what is possible can have a big effect on what we all think is good value-- and discarding a concept as too expensive is not exactly rational.
Realistically a product at a 1/4 the cost and 2/3rds the efficiency may well be adequete for most end users--- what is important is to understand what compromises are being made with those choices.
To do something usefull-- lets use the list of types of intercoolers above to publish some common data( on the one list) and find a set of standardised measurements taht can help us all.
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Mark and others-- I have the utmost respect for what you are ALL trying to do--so please do not see what I say in the negative.
Any supplier that purports to sell a product should expect to supply some supporting data. Regardless of the cost- knowing what is possible can have a big effect on what we all think is good value-- and discarding a concept as too expensive is not exactly rational.
Realistically a product at a 1/4 the cost and 2/3rds the efficiency may well be adequete for most end users--- what is important is to understand what compromises are being made with those choices.
To do something usefull-- lets use the list of types of intercoolers above to publish some common data( on the one list) and find a set of standardised measurements taht can help us all.
Any supplier that purports to sell a product should expect to supply some supporting data. Regardless of the cost- knowing what is possible can have a big effect on what we all think is good value-- and discarding a concept as too expensive is not exactly rational.
Realistically a product at a 1/4 the cost and 2/3rds the efficiency may well be adequete for most end users--- what is important is to understand what compromises are being made with those choices.
To do something usefull-- lets use the list of types of intercoolers above to publish some common data( on the one list) and find a set of standardised measurements taht can help us all.
I agree wholeheartedly with you. Problem is that there is not much data that is directly comparable. What are the chances of having the exact same conditions atmospherically and mechanically in different places. Ideally, it would be the same vehicle being used on the same day to run these tests or consecutive days at a place where the weather does not change much, like SoCal in June. Aside from that, you cannot compare a car running on 40 C 90% humidity to a car running in 30 C at 50% humidity, with both cars running different turbo setups etc.
But it would be nice to see all the info. Personally I think that the aftermarket turbos available will be running much closer than 2/3's the performance. I'd say closer to 95% of the performance or better. The design isn't different enough.