Best INTERCOOLERS - PLUG & PLAY
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Have no dyno but am very happy with my AWE Intercoolers, I especially like the 80mm hoses which come into the 60mm OEM Y bend and on the drivers side the hose is routed over the MAF, rather than under, to improve flow.
Mike/AWE,
Being an engineer I love data. My suggestion to provide more useful (and repeatable) data is to change the psi vs rpm graph to psi vs volume using a flow bench. RPM "flow" depends on engine size, rpm, boost levels, variable intake temp, etc. Flow bench/Volume takes out all those other variables.
It would be also excellent to provide that exact same graph for the external flow too. By making a core simply thicker, it will flow more internally obviously but it will also flow less externally (for the same differential pressure.) At some point that cancels out any benefit as the internal drop is diminishing return while the external drop will increase forever.
Would allow real apples to apples comparisons of flow. I know there are still differences in heat transfer based on internal turbulence (or even lack of it) but at least two dP vs V graphs would take a big step towards providing standardized comparisons.
Being an engineer I love data. My suggestion to provide more useful (and repeatable) data is to change the psi vs rpm graph to psi vs volume using a flow bench. RPM "flow" depends on engine size, rpm, boost levels, variable intake temp, etc. Flow bench/Volume takes out all those other variables.
It would be also excellent to provide that exact same graph for the external flow too. By making a core simply thicker, it will flow more internally obviously but it will also flow less externally (for the same differential pressure.) At some point that cancels out any benefit as the internal drop is diminishing return while the external drop will increase forever.
Would allow real apples to apples comparisons of flow. I know there are still differences in heat transfer based on internal turbulence (or even lack of it) but at least two dP vs V graphs would take a big step towards providing standardized comparisons.
While we apprecaite where you are coming from, we don't want to get too caught up in theoretical results. We can’t realistically duplicate intake air temps on a flow bench, so the results there are just as “theoretical” as any other non-real world test.
So instead of modeling on a flow bench, we did our modeling with software (CFD) and then double checked it with chassis dyno, street, and track testing, which you have seen in the prior posts.
We are glad things worked out. Look forward to working with you again.
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You do? When was that?
I have been posting the same data since the products release. I recall only one thread where a newer user asked us to supply data and we offered what we had. I even offline pointed him to other threads where this was posted. In a phone converstaion we had after the fact he apologized then applauded us.
Please don't take this as an attack, nor I am not trying to start an argument with you, I just want to know who and what you are talking about.
.
I have been posting the same data since the products release. I recall only one thread where a newer user asked us to supply data and we offered what we had. I even offline pointed him to other threads where this was posted. In a phone converstaion we had after the fact he apologized then applauded us.
Please don't take this as an attack, nor I am not trying to start an argument with you, I just want to know who and what you are talking about.
.
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LOL 7500 euro is like 16-18 k or something right? I'd rather just buy a spare engine from Suncoast. Unless you are going to tell me this same guy provides all the IC's to the various turbo cars that run the 24hr amatuer races and that we all need an IC for a 24 hr race to do a DE, I'm lead to believe that there are much more reasonable options out there. The Secans may be great, but they are beyond overkill for what we are doing, and considering engine failures are still few and far between, I think we'll be ok.
I don't call spending 3-4k US cheap when it comes to intercoolers.
I don't call spending 3-4k US cheap when it comes to intercoolers.
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There are so many variables, that it may be wise to spend an extraordinary amount of money on intercoolers if you own a race team that competes in endurance racing.
IMHO, I am not very interested in 60-130 mph pulls, or drag racing a 911, but most club racing doesn't even come close to what you require as a top drawer pro racer.
IMHO, I am not very interested in 60-130 mph pulls, or drag racing a 911, but most club racing doesn't even come close to what you require as a top drawer pro racer.
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Secan may be great, but for $18k, I expect secan to purchase all of the competitors IC's and have them tested independently to show a real world data of why their IC's are worth as much as a remanufactured turbo engine.
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Agreed. Better parts cost more but the converse often isn't true. Esp w/ low volume specialty parts. Heck, they very well could be LESS efficient but use an expensive/proprietary endplate forming/welding process to prevent cracks or leaks. NEVER failing is more important in endurance racing then that last 1% power. W/o data you can never know.
For example: you could build a small qty of custom cores, e-beam welded in a vacuum, xrayed, etc. Would cost a bloody fortune. Are they any more efficient than a mass produced XYZ core ? Maybe - maybe not. Are they more reliable? Possibly. Do they cost more? Oh yeah!
Edit: I do NOT mean to infer the Secans are bad. Just that there are ALOT of manufacturing variables that can drive up cost exponentially w/ little end benefit.
For example: you could build a small qty of custom cores, e-beam welded in a vacuum, xrayed, etc. Would cost a bloody fortune. Are they any more efficient than a mass produced XYZ core ? Maybe - maybe not. Are they more reliable? Possibly. Do they cost more? Oh yeah!
Edit: I do NOT mean to infer the Secans are bad. Just that there are ALOT of manufacturing variables that can drive up cost exponentially w/ little end benefit.
Last edited by smdubovsky; Sep 24, 2009 at 10:11 AM.
Ok, I think I know what you are referring to.
Yes, 95% of our current data was already online years before that Rennlist thread, which honestly is more then just about every option out there, however the only thing we added in that thread was those highway acceleration graphs. Icing on the cake...
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But then again, if you think Bells are good enough, I suppose you think my Porsche Motorsport 997 RSR-spec suspension with custom valved 4-way adjustable shocks is overkill too? Those probably cost more than most people's engine builds.... I guess only people like CJV or 1BADGT2 would understand...
at you.Of course a lot of guys have far more car than driver, so that isn't a rare phenomenon. However 1BADGT2 has been building that car for almost 2 years, has nearly or maybe has reached 500k into it, and hasn't even had a chance to drive the car yet (or at least hasn't posted about it). I'm sure there are a whole lot of guys enjoying their stock or "cheap" IC's and "cheaply" modded suspension a whole lot more with no problems to speak of. When it comes to practicality, spending more than the car is worth on IC's and suspension is not very enviable to many. So IMO that's nothing to brag about. Now you have to keep the measly old cup cars and semi modded cars from making you look bad on the track with all of your super expensive parts.
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Well, I guess it all depends on how much you can afford and how you use the car. How can you simply dismiss Secans as being completely unnecessary when it is proven to keep IATs within about 20degC above ambient? You don't think this affects reliability and engine longevity when you pound your car with 700hp or more worth of boosted air pressure lap after lap in the California desert?
I think it is so funny that some people spend $50-100K+ on their 4 figure engine builds, yet go cheap on something as important as intercoolers.
But I suppose your right, Bell cores are probably good enough for what most of you guys do, which is drag racing and highway pulls. But it seems according to Reinhold Schirmler (RS Tuning) who has built more race worthy Porsche turbocharged motors than anyone else I can think of, SECANs or now Toby's ICs are the way to go for his "measly" 700hp engines that can last a 24 hour race and set the record pole time on the Nurburgring. But what does he know, I bet your Turbo can do a faster 60-130, so obviously he must be wrong
Porsche Motorsport uses SECAN ICs for their Turbo applications (993 GT2 EVO), so that's more than enough endorsement for me. Frankly $10-15,000 on a pair of ICs is a drop in the bucket when you consider the cost of a quality high HP engine build.
But then again, if you think Bells are good enough, I suppose you think my Porsche Motorsport 997 RSR-spec suspension with custom valved 4-way adjustable shocks is overkill too? Those probably cost more than most people's engine builds.... I guess only people like CJV or 1BADGT2 would understand...
I think it is so funny that some people spend $50-100K+ on their 4 figure engine builds, yet go cheap on something as important as intercoolers.
But I suppose your right, Bell cores are probably good enough for what most of you guys do, which is drag racing and highway pulls. But it seems according to Reinhold Schirmler (RS Tuning) who has built more race worthy Porsche turbocharged motors than anyone else I can think of, SECANs or now Toby's ICs are the way to go for his "measly" 700hp engines that can last a 24 hour race and set the record pole time on the Nurburgring. But what does he know, I bet your Turbo can do a faster 60-130, so obviously he must be wrong
Porsche Motorsport uses SECAN ICs for their Turbo applications (993 GT2 EVO), so that's more than enough endorsement for me. Frankly $10-15,000 on a pair of ICs is a drop in the bucket when you consider the cost of a quality high HP engine build.
But then again, if you think Bells are good enough, I suppose you think my Porsche Motorsport 997 RSR-spec suspension with custom valved 4-way adjustable shocks is overkill too? Those probably cost more than most people's engine builds.... I guess only people like CJV or 1BADGT2 would understand...
Let's take a poll to see how many people use their car in 24hr races or 7hr extended WOT Vmax runs on the Autobahn. Like I said, the Secans are completely unnecessary overkill for 99.99999999% of the users out there, including Toby believe it or not. If you like wasting money though, then more power to you. There's one born every minute...
Last edited by jimmer23; Sep 24, 2009 at 12:42 PM.
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Funny, you use almost the same argument as Toby did on me at PistonHeads. In fact, it's practically verbatum. Makes you wonder...
Let's take a poll to see how many people use their car in 24hr races or 7hr extended WOT Vmax runs on the Autobahn. Like I said, the Secans are completely unnecessary overkill for 99.99999999% of the users out there, including Toby believe it or not. If you like wasting money though, then more power to you. There's one born every minute...
Let's take a poll to see how many people use their car in 24hr races or 7hr extended WOT Vmax runs on the Autobahn. Like I said, the Secans are completely unnecessary overkill for 99.99999999% of the users out there, including Toby believe it or not. If you like wasting money though, then more power to you. There's one born every minute...
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+1 and I will go a step further. 24 hours for a piece of equipment that has no cyclic loading nor runs at very high temps like a hotside turbo casing is not that big a deal. Secans are probably used because they got the contract. I am sure that any decent set of IC's will last for a 24 hour race. heck, the stockers with plastic end tanks have lasted for many who track daily. How many people here have had aftermarket IC's for years and 10's of thousands of miles with no issues. Sorry, I don't buy it. $18K for any non moving, no stress, low heat, part is ridiculous. Now if someone wants to sell me a set of Secans for $2k, I am there
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Many comments on cost here-- I cannot see how what the cost is has anything to do with the efficiency of an intercooler. Ultimately I want to know what is possible--then what I can afford or are prepared to pay to acquire whatever level of performance .
What compromises are being made and where any given choice fits in that scheme of things are the important things to me .If Secan can achieve things that others cannot- then surely it is in everyone's interests to know that- regardless of wether any individual thinks the cost to high or ridiculous.
What compromises are being made and where any given choice fits in that scheme of things are the important things to me .If Secan can achieve things that others cannot- then surely it is in everyone's interests to know that- regardless of wether any individual thinks the cost to high or ridiculous.