APR Tuning
I think your misunderstanding me about the different programs. There aren't any octane differences in their programs except for 100 octane. The stock program is the exact programming the car came with from the factory and it's very useful when bringing the car in for service which is also where the security option comes into play. You can switch it back to stock which will prevent anyone from being able to change your programs with out entering in your 4 digit code.
Don't get me wrong here I know you have already purchased your APR software, I'm simply educating those who are in the market such as the OP and correcting some of the facts that have been said about APR.
"Custome Tune" I see has been thrown around a lot lately by some of the other tuners and the one which you mentioned that your currently buying, if it's more well known than APR, well the brand of your choice I have yet to hear about till you mentioned him in your PM. APR's goal isn't to make sure every Porsche has their software in it. It would be nice but it's not realistic. There are too many others out there that most of the time the customer is sold on a tune by someone locally they trust and have an established relationship with.
As far as price goes, if you think you have a product that is simply better than anyone elses, you wouldn't sell it for the same price as others in your market. I could price match APR's software all day with everyone elses but by doing that it's also telling the customer that the their competitors software is just as good which is not true. I rather sell them the other brand for that price then discount the APR software and I think at the end of the day most people would pay a little more for a better product.
Anyways let me know on how that software upgrade goes on your car I would definately be interested to see how you like it and how it feels
Don't get me wrong here I know you have already purchased your APR software, I'm simply educating those who are in the market such as the OP and correcting some of the facts that have been said about APR.
"Custome Tune" I see has been thrown around a lot lately by some of the other tuners and the one which you mentioned that your currently buying, if it's more well known than APR, well the brand of your choice I have yet to hear about till you mentioned him in your PM. APR's goal isn't to make sure every Porsche has their software in it. It would be nice but it's not realistic. There are too many others out there that most of the time the customer is sold on a tune by someone locally they trust and have an established relationship with.
As far as price goes, if you think you have a product that is simply better than anyone elses, you wouldn't sell it for the same price as others in your market. I could price match APR's software all day with everyone elses but by doing that it's also telling the customer that the their competitors software is just as good which is not true. I rather sell them the other brand for that price then discount the APR software and I think at the end of the day most people would pay a little more for a better product.
Anyways let me know on how that software upgrade goes on your car I would definately be interested to see how you like it and how it feels
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Matthew, you are correct that people would be willing to pay more for a product that was superior to everyone else's product. Now someone just needs to provide the proof that it IS better...
I am working on this as we speak. One of my really good freinds who happens to also be a client of mine has a 997TT with the tubi race exhaust. (no cats) Our next track event is June 17th. It has a long enough back straight to hit atleast 130mph before he has to start braking and going into the back straight he can slow down to as low as 20mph if he wants. The road course is only 2.3 miles long ( Carolina Motorsports Park ) Kershaw South Carolina. Besides breaking the law and doing it on an open highway at 2am this is pretty much our only place to do it. There are a couple drag strips but they are only 1/4 mile long and the fastest he has was able to get it up to was 127mph (manual transmission) Here @ GMP we are not equipped to dyno. There are some local places but they are two wheel drive dynos only.
If there is a way to dyno this car on a two wheel please speak up and let me know and I can have it done anytime in 24hrs. Obviously it would require removing the drive shaft but I think there are some other things involved as well.
If there is a way to dyno this car on a two wheel please speak up and let me know and I can have it done anytime in 24hrs. Obviously it would require removing the drive shaft but I think there are some other things involved as well.
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Matt, I have been though the trenches in this Audi community that you are reffering to, since 2001, from A4 to B5 S4, Upgraded turbo's to custom tuning, engine out of the car 3 times. I started poking my head over here because a family member has a 997TT and I saw APR's had software, so I've been checking over here periodically. Their engineering is top notch, and when they described their ability to control the vanes of the turbos to create such huge low end tq, I have no reason to question this knowing what I know about the company. They made fueling for the B5 S4 with I think only 1 software revision over the 7+ years it's been out, while tunners like GIAC went through countless revisions (including my car). This experiance makes me know APR has fantastic tuning abilities, yet the lack of data is rediculous. These guys have cash and want a superior product, and are willing to pay for it with data. Give them the data, even knowing what I know about APR's ability I am becoming skeptical, imagine how it is for a bunch of people that don't know APR, and don't know the history of the company. I see atleast 30 APR flash's sitting on the table in this forum alone, $100k+ revenue. So either APR doesn't care, or it doesn't perform as advertised. I would do my damn best to get some data and sell some flashes!!
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I think your misunderstanding me about the different programs. There aren't any octane differences in their programs except for 100 octane. The stock program is the exact programming the car came with from the factory and it's very useful when bringing the car in for service which is also where the security option comes into play. You can switch it back to stock which will prevent anyone from being able to change your programs with out entering in your 4 digit code.
I went through the details of this function with the Aussie agent and whilst its a nice function its not a necessity for me and, i suspect many others.
The other issue here regarding the proclaimed undetection has also been discussed to death previously on the "Softronic Critisms" thread and it would appear that unless APR or any other tuner can furnish conclusive proof that their tune is undetectable from P's piwis then there is little point switching it back to stock to try and hide that.
Don't get me wrong here I know you have already purchased your APR (Protomotive) software, I'm simply educating those who are in the market such as the OP and correcting some of the facts that have been said about APR.
Understand. I also dont wish to set your tail feathers on fire either by saying what i have, but someone needs to say it.
"Custome Tune" I see has been thrown around a lot lately by some of the other tuners and the one which you mentioned that your currently buying, if it's more well known than APR, well the brand of your choice I have yet to hear about till you mentioned him in your PM.
Protomotive is evidently infinately better known, recognised and accepted than APR could ever hope to be. If APR think they are recognised as a worthy tune in the porsche fraternity then they are being "legends in their own lunch time".
For the record, i only got to hear of Protomotive on your Forum here at 6speed, so why you havent heard of them at all up until now is a mystery given your position in the industry. I also note a recent thread by member "Divexxtreme" titled "Please post the name of the tuner(s) that modified your car". This thread went for 15 pages and only once APR came up as being chosen (post 156). What ensued that post was rejection of APR (see posts 157, 168, 169). You will see Protomotive being mentioned countless times and, by many as a being stand out tune of choice. Not even skandalis mentioned the word APR. Yes...i just reviewed the thread. Protomotive is also mentioned on rennlist many times too. All very favourable reviews and discussions. Another recent 6spd Thread "Tuning" (16/5/2010) also had no mention of APR amongst those volunteering the tune they used.
What should be alarming for APR is the volume of 996tt and 997tt tunes that have been sold out from under their very noses.
APR's goal isn't to make sure every Porsche has their software in it.
Thats very obvious. Their loss thankfully, not mine.
It would be nice but it's not realistic.
True.. but then it'll never happen unless they get themselves into the 997tt market somehow. Offering free trial is nice but most all offer the satisfaction money back garrantee anyway. As i said, price is the major obstacle here.
There are too many others out there that most of the time the customer is sold on a tune by someone locally they trust and have an established relationship with.
Maybe.. But many buyers also do their due diligence before jumping in. and, yes, there will always be the rare "pink ones" too that have a lot of money and dont care, but they represent the minority of the market not the majority.
As far as price goes, if you think you have a product that is simply better than anyone elses, you wouldn't sell it for the same price as others in your market. Thinking you have a better product these days doesnt really cut it nor does relying too heavily on media and marketing hype.
No one likes to give good stuff away if you can help it. However for APR i honestly cant see any other way forward for them other than to get down and dirty and start mixing it up with the competition pricewise especially given the obvious low sales of that product. The market isnt going to be there forever.
My understanding is APR arent OEM to Porsche nor do they have their official blessing for this tune so that means they are left to operate on the same footing as the other tuners. Nothing exlusive there. So, if getting a toe hold into the 997tt market means having to go beneath the competition pricewise initially then... so be it. Its far better than picking up the crumbs left behind after the feeding frenzy. Imho of course.
I could price match APR's software all day with everyone elses but by doing that it's also telling the customer that the their competitors software is just as good which is not true.
Thats not totally true. Often you have to get people used to the taste of something first before getting too high and mighty with the pricing (again imho). Again APR relying too much on their self proclaimed superiority will often be seen as arrogant. This is where customer reviews and feed back come into play....something APR does not have.
...rather sell them the other brand for that price then discount the APR software and I think at the end of the day most people would pay a little more for a better product.
Evidently "most people" havent so far going by the lack of feedback. I bet you sell a lot more of the cheaper brand tune because the price is realistic in your market.
You are also fortunate you have a large range of other products to offer and arent just looking to put food on your table just selling the 997tt APR tune. And, i suspect if you guys were, you may be dining on your sandshoes by now (no offense intended).
Anyways let me know on how that software upgrade goes on your car I would definately be interested to see how you like it and how it feels
I went through the details of this function with the Aussie agent and whilst its a nice function its not a necessity for me and, i suspect many others.
The other issue here regarding the proclaimed undetection has also been discussed to death previously on the "Softronic Critisms" thread and it would appear that unless APR or any other tuner can furnish conclusive proof that their tune is undetectable from P's piwis then there is little point switching it back to stock to try and hide that.
Don't get me wrong here I know you have already purchased your APR (Protomotive) software, I'm simply educating those who are in the market such as the OP and correcting some of the facts that have been said about APR.
Understand. I also dont wish to set your tail feathers on fire either by saying what i have, but someone needs to say it.
"Custome Tune" I see has been thrown around a lot lately by some of the other tuners and the one which you mentioned that your currently buying, if it's more well known than APR, well the brand of your choice I have yet to hear about till you mentioned him in your PM.
Protomotive is evidently infinately better known, recognised and accepted than APR could ever hope to be. If APR think they are recognised as a worthy tune in the porsche fraternity then they are being "legends in their own lunch time".
For the record, i only got to hear of Protomotive on your Forum here at 6speed, so why you havent heard of them at all up until now is a mystery given your position in the industry. I also note a recent thread by member "Divexxtreme" titled "Please post the name of the tuner(s) that modified your car". This thread went for 15 pages and only once APR came up as being chosen (post 156). What ensued that post was rejection of APR (see posts 157, 168, 169). You will see Protomotive being mentioned countless times and, by many as a being stand out tune of choice. Not even skandalis mentioned the word APR. Yes...i just reviewed the thread. Protomotive is also mentioned on rennlist many times too. All very favourable reviews and discussions. Another recent 6spd Thread "Tuning" (16/5/2010) also had no mention of APR amongst those volunteering the tune they used.
What should be alarming for APR is the volume of 996tt and 997tt tunes that have been sold out from under their very noses.
APR's goal isn't to make sure every Porsche has their software in it.
Thats very obvious. Their loss thankfully, not mine.
It would be nice but it's not realistic.
True.. but then it'll never happen unless they get themselves into the 997tt market somehow. Offering free trial is nice but most all offer the satisfaction money back garrantee anyway. As i said, price is the major obstacle here.
There are too many others out there that most of the time the customer is sold on a tune by someone locally they trust and have an established relationship with.
Maybe.. But many buyers also do their due diligence before jumping in. and, yes, there will always be the rare "pink ones" too that have a lot of money and dont care, but they represent the minority of the market not the majority.
As far as price goes, if you think you have a product that is simply better than anyone elses, you wouldn't sell it for the same price as others in your market. Thinking you have a better product these days doesnt really cut it nor does relying too heavily on media and marketing hype.
No one likes to give good stuff away if you can help it. However for APR i honestly cant see any other way forward for them other than to get down and dirty and start mixing it up with the competition pricewise especially given the obvious low sales of that product. The market isnt going to be there forever.
My understanding is APR arent OEM to Porsche nor do they have their official blessing for this tune so that means they are left to operate on the same footing as the other tuners. Nothing exlusive there. So, if getting a toe hold into the 997tt market means having to go beneath the competition pricewise initially then... so be it. Its far better than picking up the crumbs left behind after the feeding frenzy. Imho of course
.I could price match APR's software all day with everyone elses but by doing that it's also telling the customer that the their competitors software is just as good which is not true.
Thats not totally true. Often you have to get people used to the taste of something first before getting too high and mighty with the pricing (again imho). Again APR relying too much on their self proclaimed superiority will often be seen as arrogant. This is where customer reviews and feed back come into play....something APR does not have.
...rather sell them the other brand for that price then discount the APR software and I think at the end of the day most people would pay a little more for a better product.
Evidently "most people" havent so far going by the lack of feedback. I bet you sell a lot more of the cheaper brand tune because the price is realistic in your market.
You are also fortunate you have a large range of other products to offer and arent just looking to put food on your table just selling the 997tt APR tune. And, i suspect if you guys were, you may be dining on your sandshoes by now (no offense intended).
Anyways let me know on how that software upgrade goes on your car I would definately be interested to see how you like it and how it feels
Last edited by speed21; May 28, 2010 at 12:29 AM.
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This is an interesting question with many implications and perhaps unmeasurable. How does one provide proof that a certain tune is "better"? What does "better" mean? Faster times? More HP? If that's the case then APR wins hands down based on Skandalis' 6.48s, 60-130. But what about linearity and engine safety? In the same light, Skandalis also has reported some recent clanking sounds on startup. Whether this problem is tune related by pushing performance to its limits is speculation. But them are da facts. You really need to trust your tuner.
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[quote=TTdude;2855675]This is an interesting question with many implications and perhaps unmeasurable. How does one provide proof that a certain tune is "better"? What does "better" mean? Faster times? More HP? If that's the case then APR wins hands down based on Skandalis' 6.48s, 60-130. But what about linearity and engine safety? In the same light, Skandalis also has reported some recent clanking sounds on startup. Whether this problem is tune related by pushing performance to its limits is speculation. But them are da facts. You really need to trust your tuner.[/quote]
Exactly TT.
It's very easy to say your the best tune but how do you go about proving it when you have virtually zero user feedback and virtually zero sales.
Exactly TT.
It's very easy to say your the best tune but how do you go about proving it when you have virtually zero user feedback and virtually zero sales.
Last edited by speed21; May 28, 2010 at 02:00 AM.
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I guess everyone just needs to ask a few questions, do their own research and chose a product that works for them in the end.
Last edited by EuroA4; May 28, 2010 at 08:35 AM.
In the 2009 and newer VW and Audi cars the digital signature encryption from Bosch on the ME17 ECU's is twice as long as the 2008 and older cars and requires several months of engineering to get passed it. VW was kind enough to supply them with this ECU 2 years ago. EVOMS, GIAC, Revo, Unitronic havent started getting the ME17 yet till late 2009 on the A4's early 2010 on the GTI's . Feel free to ask them if they have it and let us know.
As for the percentage of market share its estimated and its not to be taken as a hard fact but as something to think about on a global scale. They have software for ECU's and engines that are not even available here in the US by sending their engineers around the globe to due the necessary testing.
As for the percentage of market share its estimated and its not to be taken as a hard fact but as something to think about on a global scale. They have software for ECU's and engines that are not even available here in the US by sending their engineers around the globe to due the necessary testing.
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I believe I am the right guy to speak for my car...regarding startup noise for half second,it has nothing to do with my car,but it was oil related...as I ve stated on another thread,my car did this noise when I switched oil from another importer/distributer here in Greece...i switched oil again from another importer of Mobil 1 and the noise dissapeared...Sample of my oil has been sent to Blackstone labs in order to examine and analyse it...of course in case this sample does not correspond to Mobil 1 0/40 I will press charges against specific oil importer here...So startup noise has nothing to do with software,the car did not have any noise before this specific oil change and does not have any noise after this oil was removed...
APR has excellent software...I am an electronic engineer as well and run my own programming company here...I did tailor tuned my 996TT and made it extremely fast...But I was not able to create something better for my 997TT than APR...i drive my car 250miles per week and the car runs flawless...It could not be any better...
APR has excellent software...I am an electronic engineer as well and run my own programming company here...I did tailor tuned my 996TT and made it extremely fast...But I was not able to create something better for my 997TT than APR...i drive my car 250miles per week and the car runs flawless...It could not be any better...
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I believe I am the right guy to speak for my car...regarding startup noise for half second,it has nothing to do with my car,but it was oil related...as I ve stated on another thread,my car did this noise when I switched oil from another importer/distributer here in Greece...i switched oil again from another importer of Mobil 1 and the noise dissapeared...Sample of my oil has been sent to Blackstone labs in order to examine and analyse it...of course in case this sample does not correspond to Mobil 1 0/40 I will press charges against specific oil importer here...So startup noise has nothing to do with software,the car did not have any noise before this specific oil change and does not have any noise after this oil was removed...
APR has excellent software...I am an electronic engineer as well and run my own programming company here...I did tailor tuned my 996TT and made it extremely fast...But I was not able to create something better for my 997TT than APR...i drive my car 250miles per week and the car runs flawless...It could not be any better...
APR has excellent software...I am an electronic engineer as well and run my own programming company here...I did tailor tuned my 996TT and made it extremely fast...But I was not able to create something better for my 997TT than APR...i drive my car 250miles per week and the car runs flawless...It could not be any better...
Electronics engineer eh ! Looks like you are increasing your credibility each time you post. Thats your most enthusiastic post for APR to date. Hope you can still pull off the dyno for us all. APR for one reason or another is having a hard time convincing 6 speeders of its own credibility.
Thanks for your input Skandalis. You are keeping the thread from making Sponsor Matthew sweat every time APR is challenged.
We need to get some un-disputed recorded results to see whether APR can live up to its claims on paper or not. We will then have a basis for comparisons to other flashes, and we can all determine if its a better bang for your buck or not.
If only you guys could realize how much APR has on their plate right now you guys would understand that the Porsche market can't even come close to how much revenue VW/Audi brings in for them. They have several R&D projects already going on at the same time it's incredible. Between a supercharger kit for the RS4, doing the tuning calibrations for Hennessy's R8 Twin Turbo kits, servicing 3 race teams in between races, developing the new 3.0T Audi set up which now can be found in the new S4, A6, and future platforms yet to come. And that is just the stuff they have on their plate for the USA. They plan on sending. their team of engineers again overseas to do some more tuning on the new platforms coming out that are specific to their countries as they have dealers world wide.
[quote=speed21;2855686]
Like I said we are willing to send out our computer to anyone willing to try it out for 30 days risk free and they can do their own testing.
As for now we are still trying to explore opportunites to get some numbers that the forum so desperately craves. Until then the 30 day money back offer is open for everyone
As far as reliability goes, how many miles is considered reliable? 5000, 10000 100000? All I can say is that I think one of my clients has hit 10k miles plus. He is active on here his name is TJCLAY. Shoot him a PM.
I have a local silent reader on here that doesn't have time really for forum chat but he has had the software for a year now and runs nothing but 100 octane. Probably has 5k miles on it and just ran 6 20 minute 2.3 mile road course sessions at carolina motorsports park in Kershaw, SC and didn't have a single problem. He doesn't jus take it out either on the weekends to go out to dinner, he takes it out religiously on his back roads and beats the **** out of it and it just keeps asking for more.
Only thing we have swapped out was for the sachs stage 2 clutch upgrade and the GT2 slave conversion for a stronger hold and more consistant clutch engagement.
This is an interesting question with many implications and perhaps unmeasurable. How does one provide proof that a certain tune is "better"? What does "better" mean? Faster times? More HP? If that's the case then APR wins hands down based on Skandalis' 6.48s, 60-130. But what about linearity and engine safety? In the same light, Skandalis also has reported some recent clanking sounds on startup. Whether this problem is tune related by pushing performance to its limits is speculation. But them are da facts. You really need to trust your tuner.[/quote]
Exactly TT.
It's very easy to say your the best tune but how do you go about proving it when you have virtually zero user feedback and virtually zero sales.
Exactly TT.
It's very easy to say your the best tune but how do you go about proving it when you have virtually zero user feedback and virtually zero sales.
As for now we are still trying to explore opportunites to get some numbers that the forum so desperately craves. Until then the 30 day money back offer is open for everyone
As far as reliability goes, how many miles is considered reliable? 5000, 10000 100000? All I can say is that I think one of my clients has hit 10k miles plus. He is active on here his name is TJCLAY. Shoot him a PM.
I have a local silent reader on here that doesn't have time really for forum chat but he has had the software for a year now and runs nothing but 100 octane. Probably has 5k miles on it and just ran 6 20 minute 2.3 mile road course sessions at carolina motorsports park in Kershaw, SC and didn't have a single problem. He doesn't jus take it out either on the weekends to go out to dinner, he takes it out religiously on his back roads and beats the **** out of it and it just keeps asking for more.
Only thing we have swapped out was for the sachs stage 2 clutch upgrade and the GT2 slave conversion for a stronger hold and more consistant clutch engagement.