Engine Limits vs Power -- Sharing Some Knowledge
Former Vendor
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,183
From: South Florida
Rep Power: 0
Yet not one person here can explain to me why 700+(and in some cases, 900+)whp stock engined cars are supposed to be reliable when Porsche designed this motor for a far lower output- a rated crank output less than half of the biggest "reliable" and "verified" power ratings at the wheels...
I think you're giving members here a lot more credit than they are due.
Again, I'm no automotive engineer but I highly doubt Porsche would leave 50+% on the table as some of you are saying. It's much more likely that Porsche engineered this motor for 25-50% higher absolute output and scaled back the power 33% for reliability under all conditions, which would account for an approximate 500hp rated power and thus a 750hp engineered max, close to the 700whp that Champion says is what they see as being a safe maximum power output. But what the heck, apparently people here according to you are smart and experienced...
I think you're giving members here a lot more credit than they are due.
Again, I'm no automotive engineer but I highly doubt Porsche would leave 50+% on the table as some of you are saying. It's much more likely that Porsche engineered this motor for 25-50% higher absolute output and scaled back the power 33% for reliability under all conditions, which would account for an approximate 500hp rated power and thus a 750hp engineered max, close to the 700whp that Champion says is what they see as being a safe maximum power output. But what the heck, apparently people here according to you are smart and experienced...
The 4g63 Mitsu Engine I have 100+ cars we have tuned at 480-500whp and they make 250 stock.. another example of 100% increase reliably..
So why wouldnt porsche over-engineer a 100K+ car to handle 75% more power?? Sure they would..
Mike
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 8,509
From: Virginia, USA
Rep Power: 789
Yet not one person here can explain to me why 700+(and in some cases, 900+)whp stock engined cars are supposed to be reliable when Porsche designed this motor for a far lower output- a rated crank output less than half of the biggest "reliable" and "verified" power ratings at the wheels...
I think you're giving members here a lot more credit than they are due.
I think you're giving members here a lot more credit than they are due.
But honestly, what you believe is of zero concern to me.
OK come on guys....everyone play nice.
If you have valuable information that can shed some light on this subject, let's share it! Everyone put their egos aside, and remember what the purpose of forums like this is.
Let's just keep it relevant to the topic at hand....Porsche engines.
If you have valuable information that can shed some light on this subject, let's share it! Everyone put their egos aside, and remember what the purpose of forums like this is.
Let's just keep it relevant to the topic at hand....Porsche engines.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 497
From: South FLA
Rep Power: 38
First off, Champion is not on top (nor are they on bottom). Second, no one is trying to knock them down. Points are simply being brought to light that contradict the OPs speculative, absolute, generalized comments.
Do you expect people who disagree to simply not respond? That's not going to happen. Get over it.
The insecurity in this thread is strong...
Do you expect people who disagree to simply not respond? That's not going to happen. Get over it.
The insecurity in this thread is strong...
Last edited by Slow911TT68Tip; Apr 25, 2011 at 02:55 PM.
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 8,509
From: Virginia, USA
Rep Power: 789
But thanks for having zero concern for me. It just reinforces my opinion that, like me, most members here have no idea what is actually going on even though they may claim otherwise.
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 8,509
From: Virginia, USA
Rep Power: 789
Dive: I should have stated it differently...they are NOT on the very top but certainly very good and deserve respect Given their history, honesty, and good track record. They should be commended for this post......every tuner has had failures and to think not is purely unrealistic. It is the ones that learn from mistakes that make them better....that applies to any hi-tech business.
Plus, considering my own personal experiences with owning a stock-engined car that was driven very hard (however, not beaten), with a lot of boost, a great tune, always with proper fuel, with rods that were in perfect shape, I have a difficult time believing "700" is the magic number.
Regardless, we are all going to do what we choose anyway. Some of us will push past 700 on stock internals, some us won't. To each his own.
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 8,509
From: Virginia, USA
Rep Power: 789
As are your assumptions that the motors can't handle 700 rwhp based on one failure from a Champion motor. 100% anecdotal.
Nope. Nor can anyone say that 500 rwhp SHOULD be done and is safe to do so. Or 600. Or 650.
Amazingly, other tuners like Protomotive, Switzer, and Boost Logic all have cars running well over 800 and even 900 whp with no issues to date. But of course, you discount that data since it doesn't back-up your argument.
Using your debating style, can you FACTUALLY STATE or PROVE that the Porsche motor cannot safely handle 700rwhp for a long period of time, assuming a proper tune and the right octane is used? Of course not. As a matter of fact, there is significantly more data suggesting that it can, rather than cannot.
Do you even own a modified Porsche, or are you simply here to troll the forum and serve as a shill for Champion? You come on here running your mouth, talking crap about the lack of member knowledge in this forum, implying that the big-power cars on here with stock motors are nothing more than dyno queens which is the only reason they haven't blown up yet (because all of those other tuners are idiots, right?)...for what purpose exactly, if not to troll?
Back on topic, can anyone factually state that 700+whp on a stock block SHOULD be done and is safe to do?
Or are we just talking about time bombs or dyno queens at that level? Should there be more clearly defined "use limits" via accumulated run time when driving one of these things? Should owners be made more aware of potential issues?
Using your debating style, can you FACTUALLY STATE or PROVE that the Porsche motor cannot safely handle 700rwhp for a long period of time, assuming a proper tune and the right octane is used? Of course not. As a matter of fact, there is significantly more data suggesting that it can, rather than cannot.
Do you even own a modified Porsche, or are you simply here to troll the forum and serve as a shill for Champion? You come on here running your mouth, talking crap about the lack of member knowledge in this forum, implying that the big-power cars on here with stock motors are nothing more than dyno queens which is the only reason they haven't blown up yet (because all of those other tuners are idiots, right?)...for what purpose exactly, if not to troll?
Last edited by Divexxtreme; Apr 25, 2011 at 04:19 PM.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 497
From: South FLA
Rep Power: 38
I agree they are very good and that they should be given respect. I absolutely agree with all of that. But there also other tuners who are equally as good that have differing opinions on the matter.
Plus, considering my own personal experiences with owning a stock-engined car that was driven very hard (however, not beaten), with a lot of boost, a great tune, always with proper fuel, with rods that were in perfect shape, I have a difficult time believing "700" is the magic number.
Regardless, we are all going to do what we choose anyway. Some of us will push past 700 on stock internals, some us won't. To each his own.
Plus, considering my own personal experiences with owning a stock-engined car that was driven very hard (however, not beaten), with a lot of boost, a great tune, always with proper fuel, with rods that were in perfect shape, I have a difficult time believing "700" is the magic number.
Regardless, we are all going to do what we choose anyway. Some of us will push past 700 on stock internals, some us won't. To each his own.
What is the "magic" number. I can hardly believe 900 is but i may be wrong. I would beleive 700 is and a good tune is prolonging the inevitable. But to each his own.
Last edited by Slow911TT68Tip; Apr 25, 2011 at 04:43 PM.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,342
From: Tucson, AZ
Rep Power: 80
This thread is definitely a great read and the possibilities of what I can do with my new to me turbo just float around in my mind. Of course I purchased the car knowing that I will over the course of years do more and more to it. Enjoying her stock for now, with likely an exhaust, tune, and coil-overs sometime next year. Being that I live in AZ, what is a realistic SAFE whp number I can achieve on 91 octane with upgraded turbos, headers, etc etc? Seems most of this thread has focused on race gas or 93 octane...
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 253
From: SF Bay Area
Rep Power: 0
I just want to say thanks to CMS for their honesty on the subject. I can not recall any other tuner starting a thread about an engine failure although we know that they have happened. Just "swept under the rug" as someone else has said. I think we can all agree that the more horsepower a car makes the shorter it's lifespan. You choose your poison!
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 8,509
From: Virginia, USA
Rep Power: 789
No, your opinion is definitely anecdotal, otherwise known as factually unreliable cherry-picking.
Oh, you mean numbers like Champion provided? Ya, they used a nice round 700. That's much more accurate and than numbers like 800 or 900.
If other tuners were bending rods at only 700rwhp, they might be happy to provide you with that information in their threads. But since they aren't, I don't see any reason for them to at this point. Regardless it sounds like you're a big-insider in the P-car world...so I'm sure you can acquire all of this information on your own.
I think I know who you are now...
I actually haven't lost my temper at all. I'm just not a fan of trolls, which is how you came off to me from your posts. As far as your opinion goes...it is has no effect on the fact that these cars are easily able to handle more than 700rwhp with the proper tune and fuel, so there's honestly zero benefit in trying to change it.
Actually all I'm asking is for some numbers. But none of the other shops seem to deal too well with those. Numbers, that is. Unless it's a nice round figure, like 800 or 900.
Actually most tuners should be able to tell you timing pulled, how many degrees, what their advance is, what boost levels are safe and unsafe at what ignition timing, and with what kinds of fuel indicating specific gravity. But I guess that's what I would expect. Perhaps not others.
I do own a Porsche. In fact I was on this forum under a different name a long time ago. Well before your time. The Chi-town guys know me. So do the magazine guys too, old school ones from Primedia and Hachette. My cars have been in their publications. Not a dyno queen amongst the bunch. I've done blown them up more times than I can count, which is why I don't pretend to be some sort of guru. Blown up stock engines, modified engines, forced induction, naturally aspirated. Broken bell housings, subframes, LSDs, transmissions. Set brakes of fire... Put welded in custom cages in, taken them out... I've got parts of Carillo rods and JE pistons from various motors sitting on my wall of shame. I've got nothing to hide... I've also been VIP guests to Sebring and LeMans (NOT with Champion) and seen the engineering and thought process of Audi prototypes and ProDrive cars up close. And to be frank, those guys at that level blow pretty much everyone else away when it comes to building cars for the street.
I guess you're losing your temper. Sorry about that... My opinion still hasn't changed...
Last edited by Divexxtreme; Apr 25, 2011 at 05:45 PM.
ugh.....there goes my thread 
For the record, I never stated an absolute power number at which these failures occur. I simply stated what WE feel comfortable with, based on OUR research, some of which you can see in the first post of this thread.
I also NEVER tried to discredit any other tuners accomplishments with either the 996 or 997 Turbo platforms. In fact, we commend them.
If you read this thread, and choose to think "oh well Champion can't tune, that's why the rods bent"....then that's absolutely fine. If you give some credit to what we've discovered, that's fine too.
YOU DECIDE.....my role is just to present the facts as they happened. No more, no less. What other tuner here is willing to do that?
For the record, I never stated an absolute power number at which these failures occur. I simply stated what WE feel comfortable with, based on OUR research, some of which you can see in the first post of this thread.
I also NEVER tried to discredit any other tuners accomplishments with either the 996 or 997 Turbo platforms. In fact, we commend them.
If you read this thread, and choose to think "oh well Champion can't tune, that's why the rods bent"....then that's absolutely fine. If you give some credit to what we've discovered, that's fine too.
YOU DECIDE.....my role is just to present the facts as they happened. No more, no less. What other tuner here is willing to do that?
Last edited by Tom@Champion; Apr 25, 2011 at 06:13 PM.
