2013 Nissan GT-R Black Edition vs. 2012 Porsche 911 Turbo S Comparison
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Both, with the GTR we had a client who was ready to go and build a 997.1TT with us but also had just picked up a GTR. This was in the early fall of 2008. We did the development work necessary and ended up with the P800 package which was ready for sale and installation in the spring of 2009. I never had this with a 997.2TT client, most just want an exhaust and a tune. It is a damn quick car out of the box, that's for sure, do people need the choice for an R1K 997.2TT, hell yes they do, but we have not seen the demand. The trans, engine internals, fueling, and engine management needs to be addressed.
I look forward to development on this platform when the time is right.
Regarding the FL GTR you speak of, I know the complete story on that car...
It was a P800, it was built and tuned for the street. The owner specifically stated that it would not be used on the track and that he had a dedicated track car for things like that. Then I get a call that he is at Sebring on a 95* day with 90% humidity and the car is going into the red zone on engine coolant, oil, and trans temps. He had then taken the car to a shop to have a thinner intercooler (tube and fin) kit installed because it was sold to him in the regards that it would let more air flow to the radiator (upgraded to our engine cooling package, mind you, which is 2x as thick and is a dual pass core) because our monster intercoolers (bar and plate) were supposedly blocking the air flow. The tube and fin intercooler was heat-soak-city. The HKS trans cooler was added, we typically advise the Greddy unit to be used vs this one but it was a step in the right direction. This along with a bunch of other add-on parts were added and then re-tuned. At this point, the car is no longer a Switzer P800. If he had specified that he was going to track the car from the get-go he would have had all of the proper hardware, tuning, and support necessary to do so without issue.
The GTR is a heavy car, you can have all of the driving aids you wish, but you can't beat physics. Brakes need to be addressed, minor suspension upgrades help, engine and trans cooling at the 800HP level needs to be addressed, proper fluids, etc. It may seem like a lot of work, but if you do it right the first time you will have a great time beating up on others at the road course.
I look forward to development on this platform when the time is right.
Regarding the FL GTR you speak of, I know the complete story on that car...
It was a P800, it was built and tuned for the street. The owner specifically stated that it would not be used on the track and that he had a dedicated track car for things like that. Then I get a call that he is at Sebring on a 95* day with 90% humidity and the car is going into the red zone on engine coolant, oil, and trans temps. He had then taken the car to a shop to have a thinner intercooler (tube and fin) kit installed because it was sold to him in the regards that it would let more air flow to the radiator (upgraded to our engine cooling package, mind you, which is 2x as thick and is a dual pass core) because our monster intercoolers (bar and plate) were supposedly blocking the air flow. The tube and fin intercooler was heat-soak-city. The HKS trans cooler was added, we typically advise the Greddy unit to be used vs this one but it was a step in the right direction. This along with a bunch of other add-on parts were added and then re-tuned. At this point, the car is no longer a Switzer P800. If he had specified that he was going to track the car from the get-go he would have had all of the proper hardware, tuning, and support necessary to do so without issue.
The GTR is a heavy car, you can have all of the driving aids you wish, but you can't beat physics. Brakes need to be addressed, minor suspension upgrades help, engine and trans cooling at the 800HP level needs to be addressed, proper fluids, etc. It may seem like a lot of work, but if you do it right the first time you will have a great time beating up on others at the road course.
When I first bought my GTR I was under the impression that I got the best all around car. I could live with the suspension on the street, even though is stiffer than the GT3, I could live with the car not being the fastest around the track, not a problem, but once things start not working after only a few easy laps, (had passenger for a charity event) this is when I didn't care about the car anymore. I'm not taking the credit out of the car, like I stated before, It is impressive the technology and all the electronics to make this car work the way it does. The same way the GTR didn't work, I believe every single car besides a Porsche had some kind of problems or couldn't take the abuse at Sebring and ended faling at some point (short after, or during).
Of course if not driven hard, anything can take it.
I see Z06s blazing by my sometimes, huge aero, huge tires, 600WHP, a beast, but the amount of work and $ spend to get to that point makes it less attractive to me, not to say that the feeling is the same as a truck.
Going back to the student, is natural that a modified car with higher HP would suffer a lot more under those circumstances than a ''stock'' car.
He sold the car short after, (or still for sale, don't know).
I'm yet to see a GTR take Sebring abuse lap after lap day after day at the same pace we run with the GT3's (stock GT3's)
Some of us are north of 100 hours on our engines of track use, and those things still running strong.
If it count for something the GTR lasted longer than the Gallardo, who made 3 laps, after stopped shifting ??
I was lucky enough to sell it 30 days after I bought it.
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that dyno sheet is scary. Mind sharing the details on the build ?
Cams ?
Turbos ?
Tuning solution ?
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Whats it run at the drag strip?
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I am surprised to hear this. I have done tons of track days in 95-100+F temps and no issues at all in my 2010 997.2 TT pdk. I have talked to a few other 911 pdk owners and no issues as well. Its only April here and we already hit 99F today. Track season doesn't end here for another month and a half and some tracks run all through the summer.
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The stupid thing about these comparo's is that its either a real qualified race driver or a wannabe doing the tests. All irrelevant when you put that to the average joe driver.
The next factor is you have guys running a few laps in these cars. This just isnt realistic. Why? because no one brings a car to ALMS grabs a random driver and says "You are racing this today. "
The true pros at flying and driving spend hours learning their car or jet. Then you have personal likes and dislikes and abilities. Bad example but in a real air war the F-15 is gonna spank the f-16 every single time every day without a loss.
F-16 is a turn fighter F-15 is an E fighter. No fool in a F15 is gonna get into a turn fighter with the Viper.
Same goes for cars,
Lastly back to cars, on the street how many of you know the apex of every corner? That canyon carving trip you sure you know every single thing? No I didnt think so. Right you can say take the computer out of the car and make the driver drive and the GTR falls on its face. Well sorry but you cant do that the car comes with all that help so it gets it. What you have to ask is what puts a smile on your face?
1. When you log online and hear how GREAT your car is on paper? When you hear the kiddies fall over themselves over your supercar? when you get people looking wondering what it can do on the track?
2. When you see your car and just cant wait go drive as every day in it makes you happy? You like having some control in the world of more and more computers owning you?
I have flown in some of the Oldest and Newest technology. I love the new stuff for war. I dont have to worry about my hands and abilities as I am doing a mission. However for the pure joy, the old stuff wins every time.
The next factor is you have guys running a few laps in these cars. This just isnt realistic. Why? because no one brings a car to ALMS grabs a random driver and says "You are racing this today. "
The true pros at flying and driving spend hours learning their car or jet. Then you have personal likes and dislikes and abilities. Bad example but in a real air war the F-15 is gonna spank the f-16 every single time every day without a loss.
F-16 is a turn fighter F-15 is an E fighter. No fool in a F15 is gonna get into a turn fighter with the Viper.
Same goes for cars,
Lastly back to cars, on the street how many of you know the apex of every corner? That canyon carving trip you sure you know every single thing? No I didnt think so. Right you can say take the computer out of the car and make the driver drive and the GTR falls on its face. Well sorry but you cant do that the car comes with all that help so it gets it. What you have to ask is what puts a smile on your face?
1. When you log online and hear how GREAT your car is on paper? When you hear the kiddies fall over themselves over your supercar? when you get people looking wondering what it can do on the track?
2. When you see your car and just cant wait go drive as every day in it makes you happy? You like having some control in the world of more and more computers owning you?
I have flown in some of the Oldest and Newest technology. I love the new stuff for war. I dont have to worry about my hands and abilities as I am doing a mission. However for the pure joy, the old stuff wins every time.
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i recommend watching the Nürburgring 24h (17th-20th of may) via stream (http://www.sportauto.de/livestream-24h-rennen-nuerburgring-3861943.html)
Nissan is competing with a stock GT-R, okay stock isn`t really the word, while the engine, transmission and the suspension are stock,
it´s also got a fuel cell, cage, wider tires, upgrade brakes, custom lip and an aftermarket spoiler.
but nonetheless this will be the moment of truth.
(http://www.autoblog.com/2012/04/09/nissan-entering-stock-gt-r-in-24-hours-of-nurburgring/)
cause remember:
2010 24h-Nürburgring
"A stock, OEM version of the Porsche 997.2 GT3 RS managed to finish the race in an outstanding 13th place overall.
In a partnership between Porsche and German magazine Sport Auto, racing drivers Roland Asch and Patrick Simon were joined by writers Chris Harris and Horst von Saurma behind the wheel of the car. Porsche claims the car was in good condition after 27 hours of driving (including the journey to the track), that they then drove it another three hours back to Weissach. After an inspection, the car's only problems appeared to be cosmetic. This included a few dents and busted lights thanks to a collision, as well as black rubber all over the front and front-side panels."
So let´s see what a GT-R can do.
Nissan is competing with a stock GT-R, okay stock isn`t really the word, while the engine, transmission and the suspension are stock,
it´s also got a fuel cell, cage, wider tires, upgrade brakes, custom lip and an aftermarket spoiler.
but nonetheless this will be the moment of truth.
(http://www.autoblog.com/2012/04/09/nissan-entering-stock-gt-r-in-24-hours-of-nurburgring/)
cause remember:
2010 24h-Nürburgring
"A stock, OEM version of the Porsche 997.2 GT3 RS managed to finish the race in an outstanding 13th place overall.
In a partnership between Porsche and German magazine Sport Auto, racing drivers Roland Asch and Patrick Simon were joined by writers Chris Harris and Horst von Saurma behind the wheel of the car. Porsche claims the car was in good condition after 27 hours of driving (including the journey to the track), that they then drove it another three hours back to Weissach. After an inspection, the car's only problems appeared to be cosmetic. This included a few dents and busted lights thanks to a collision, as well as black rubber all over the front and front-side panels."
So let´s see what a GT-R can do.
Last edited by catchmyshadow; Apr 21, 2012 at 07:04 AM.
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I am surprised to hear this. I have done tons of track days in 95-100+F temps and no issues at all in my 2010 997.2 TT pdk. I have talked to a few other 911 pdk owners and no issues as well. Its only April here and we already hit 99F today. Track season doesn't end here for another month and a half and some tracks run all through the summer.
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The stupid thing about these comparo's is that its either a real qualified race driver or a wannabe doing the tests. All irrelevant when you put that to the average joe driver.
The next factor is you have guys running a few laps in these cars. This just isnt realistic. Why? because no one brings a car to ALMS grabs a random driver and says "You are racing this today. "
The true pros at flying and driving spend hours learning their car or jet. Then you have personal likes and dislikes and abilities. Bad example but in a real air war the F-15 is gonna spank the f-16 every single time every day without a loss.
F-16 is a turn fighter F-15 is an E fighter. No fool in a F15 is gonna get into a turn fighter with the Viper.
Same goes for cars,
Lastly back to cars, on the street how many of you know the apex of every corner? That canyon carving trip you sure you know every single thing? No I didnt think so. Right you can say take the computer out of the car and make the driver drive and the GTR falls on its face. Well sorry but you cant do that the car comes with all that help so it gets it. What you have to ask is what puts a smile on your face?
1. When you log online and hear how GREAT your car is on paper? When you hear the kiddies fall over themselves over your supercar? when you get people looking wondering what it can do on the track?
2. When you see your car and just cant wait go drive as every day in it makes you happy? You like having some control in the world of more and more computers owning you?
I have flown in some of the Oldest and Newest technology. I love the new stuff for war. I dont have to worry about my hands and abilities as I am doing a mission. However for the pure joy, the old stuff wins every time.
The next factor is you have guys running a few laps in these cars. This just isnt realistic. Why? because no one brings a car to ALMS grabs a random driver and says "You are racing this today. "
The true pros at flying and driving spend hours learning their car or jet. Then you have personal likes and dislikes and abilities. Bad example but in a real air war the F-15 is gonna spank the f-16 every single time every day without a loss.
F-16 is a turn fighter F-15 is an E fighter. No fool in a F15 is gonna get into a turn fighter with the Viper.
Same goes for cars,
Lastly back to cars, on the street how many of you know the apex of every corner? That canyon carving trip you sure you know every single thing? No I didnt think so. Right you can say take the computer out of the car and make the driver drive and the GTR falls on its face. Well sorry but you cant do that the car comes with all that help so it gets it. What you have to ask is what puts a smile on your face?
1. When you log online and hear how GREAT your car is on paper? When you hear the kiddies fall over themselves over your supercar? when you get people looking wondering what it can do on the track?
2. When you see your car and just cant wait go drive as every day in it makes you happy? You like having some control in the world of more and more computers owning you?
I have flown in some of the Oldest and Newest technology. I love the new stuff for war. I dont have to worry about my hands and abilities as I am doing a mission. However for the pure joy, the old stuff wins every time.
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I would think. My 805rwhp GTO ran 9.7Xs but that power rating was thru a high stalled TH400 tranny which has more parasitic loss then a DCT.
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If you made 805rwhp, than that's what your car made. The parasitic losses you mention only come into the equation when you are figuring crank hp, i.e., you were making more power at the crank than a manual GTO did that also made 805 rwhp.
Also, when GT-R owners start getting really serious about drag racing, they will also run stalled TH400s or Powerglides. Both are much better than the stock GT-R tranny for the dragstrip.
Last edited by Divexxtreme; Apr 21, 2012 at 09:40 AM.
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Switzer custom spec cams, turbos, fuel system, cooling, exhaust, and intake. Built tranny with custom spec clutch. Stock heads, stock displacement, forged R&P. Switzer did all tuning via Cobb AcessPORT. 3 maps; 91 low-boost, 93 tapered boost, 93 full boost. I run map 3 100% of the time.
Last edited by Divexxtreme; Apr 21, 2012 at 08:29 AM.
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I'm to assume that these track times with magazines are the usual warm up lap, 2 to 3 hots, then a cool down. This isn't time trials.
What about when the sessions get to be 5 or more hot laps. At DEs we have 25-30 min sessions and I've seen more then a few tranny limp issues, ect. Has that been handled? It seems like the GTR has a tendency have the "money-shot" early on.
Even Sharif with their track modded GTR had a tranny issue at their last big track event. It went into limp mode on them.
I'm not getting into a pissing match with you, I'm saying that for the track rat, the GTR is just too heavy and all the gadgets in the word will not overcome that for a 2 day, 8 session event, ect. My opinion is that the P-car would be a better choice.
For the drag strip or street racing, the GTR seems to be the weapon of choice.
What about when the sessions get to be 5 or more hot laps. At DEs we have 25-30 min sessions and I've seen more then a few tranny limp issues, ect. Has that been handled? It seems like the GTR has a tendency have the "money-shot" early on.
Even Sharif with their track modded GTR had a tranny issue at their last big track event. It went into limp mode on them.
I'm not getting into a pissing match with you, I'm saying that for the track rat, the GTR is just too heavy and all the gadgets in the word will not overcome that for a 2 day, 8 session event, ect. My opinion is that the P-car would be a better choice.
For the drag strip or street racing, the GTR seems to be the weapon of choice.
Even better is what Sharif's track car is now. He tunes GT-R's but his track car is a GT3. LOL.
The new GT-R isn't as bad as the old ones with regards to overheating. But it's not a reliable track car. It will still punish the tires and brakes. I think Sharif managed more than a couple laps in a row in his 2013 a week ago in some pretty hot temps.
Shame on you Scott, so a journalist says the GT-R is a better car and you act like it's the law now? I'd bet we could get 100 different opinions from 100 journalists. Better car? If it was better and since it's WAY WAY WAY cheaper, and draws SOOOOO much attention. Wouldn't it sell more? Or are we going to accuse everyone who buys a Porsche instead of a Nissan a badge *****?
That being said, the 911 Turbo is so dumbed down to keep it slower than the GT3 and out of the range of the GT2 it's ridiculous. The Turbo is really a GT car now. There's no sport left in it. A shame really.