The Ultimate 996/997 Intercooler Project
#31
01-07-2016, 10:34 PM
If you want to put "real money" on that, purchase Pwdrhound or myself a set of intercoolers (I would return them to you,) and we can run them for comparison.
I think the intent for this thread is to exceed the efficiency of most setups specifically for our usage though.
Appreciate your contribution regardless.
I have no problem sharing your donation with the forum though.
#32
01-07-2016, 10:45 PM
Hi guys,
Just a couple quick thoughts. My other hobby is aviation, specifically a pilot, and I have been fortunate to attend the Reno air races on occasion. The planes in the unlimited classes have wild engines pulling over 100 inches of Manifold Pressure, or nearly 3.4Bar. Among the many tricks they use to keep them running cool for a race, they use radiators and oil coolers, and at speeds approaching 500 mph, the air passing over these coolers has only a couple milliseconds to pick up the heat and carry it away. They get around this by increasing the core efficiency using spraybar systems to spray distilled water onto the cores in front of the airflow. Stick your finger in your mouth then blow on it, same principle as a swamp cooler. The systems are simple, reliable, and except for the water reservoir, very lightweight. The water tank can be mounted up front to keep the weight in a desirable location. I seem to recall a few years of the Sube STI's even came with a spraybar system from the factory. At any rate, spraybar systems are a proven method to significantly improve the efficiency of any heat exchanger unit. Seems like it would be a fairly simple matter to add such a system into the intercooler ducts and plumb it invisibly up to a reservoir/pump located in the front trunk area. A 1 gal tank is plenty for any reasonable length race. The distilled water is completely harmless to paint finishes and non-corrosive. Just a thought I haven't seen mentioned in this thread.
Cheers
Mikey
Just a couple quick thoughts. My other hobby is aviation, specifically a pilot, and I have been fortunate to attend the Reno air races on occasion. The planes in the unlimited classes have wild engines pulling over 100 inches of Manifold Pressure, or nearly 3.4Bar. Among the many tricks they use to keep them running cool for a race, they use radiators and oil coolers, and at speeds approaching 500 mph, the air passing over these coolers has only a couple milliseconds to pick up the heat and carry it away. They get around this by increasing the core efficiency using spraybar systems to spray distilled water onto the cores in front of the airflow. Stick your finger in your mouth then blow on it, same principle as a swamp cooler. The systems are simple, reliable, and except for the water reservoir, very lightweight. The water tank can be mounted up front to keep the weight in a desirable location. I seem to recall a few years of the Sube STI's even came with a spraybar system from the factory. At any rate, spraybar systems are a proven method to significantly improve the efficiency of any heat exchanger unit. Seems like it would be a fairly simple matter to add such a system into the intercooler ducts and plumb it invisibly up to a reservoir/pump located in the front trunk area. A 1 gal tank is plenty for any reasonable length race. The distilled water is completely harmless to paint finishes and non-corrosive. Just a thought I haven't seen mentioned in this thread.
Cheers
Mikey
Pwdrhound would need to reply on this one. I think he also owns a Subaru STI with meth also.
Water will help dissipate the heat but, for how long? I would only guess as long as the reservoir demand.
Maybe this concept has a 2nd gen to it with sprayers? We would need a base line with this first.
#33
01-07-2016, 11:07 PM
Pwdrhound would need to reply on this one. I think he also owns a Subaru STI with meth also.
Water will help dissipate the heat but, for how long? I would only guess as long as the reservoir demand.
Maybe this concept has a 2nd gen to it with sprayers? We would need a base line with this first.
Water will help dissipate the heat but, for how long? I would only guess as long as the reservoir demand.
Maybe this concept has a 2nd gen to it with sprayers? We would need a base line with this first.
Mikey
Last edited by quick968; 01-07-2016 at 11:11 PM.
#34
01-07-2016, 11:36 PM
Well just how long a demand/duty cycle are we talking about here? Obviously more than a couple dyno pulls or Tx Mile run. Do you mean like a PCA Club Race Enduro? That's an hour tops. Are you pulling WOT the entire time? Of course not. The system can be set to trigger only at WOT and shut back off immediately. You'd be surprised how quickly the heat is dissipated. The spray bar is not a garden hose, more like a mister system, not a lot of water flow. It was just a thought that I didn't see mentioned previously. The aviation world has used them successfully for decades, worth investigating. The only downside I really see is the outflow from the cores, though very slight since it mostly evaporates instantly, exits and possibly lands on the track, which would be a possible problem for following traffic in a road race. The track folks would take a dim view of that.
Mikey
Mikey
Hi Mikey,
Your correct, I don't run a 1/2, 1 mile. I prefer a few turns at high speed. I run my car for 20-30 mins at the road track. 60%-70% at full throttle may have an affect with this setup. How many gallons do you estimate I would need to carry to make a bad intercooler effective during this duty load?
I get the mist theory but, as you described, following a few cars could ruin it. I doubt that the sprayer would dump that much water to do the job unless, the intercooler wasn't doing its job at all. Which is another great point though. Water to air would be great for this situation.
For me, minute longevity is key.
Again, I would like to know more about this option and how it would help a better solution but, I cant answer your aviation terminology but, the OP or other posters may.
#35
01-08-2016, 05:48 AM
There are more comparisons to be found as well. Markski recently posted an IAT between his ICs and GT2RSs. On a single run, his ICs absorbed more heat than the GT2RSs. He was also very quick (and honest) to point out that recovery times for the GT2RSs would be much quicker than his. So, depending on your application, you might be better off spending less to achieve the same results.
But for road racing or similar where you are repeatedly at WOT for longer periods ICs with more mass will not help. Not to mention the large mass at the outer rear corners of the car.
Actually, this was addressed above - albeit with an "internal" spray (water-meth) rather than external. Same principle. Similar advantages and drawbacks. See posts #21 and #22.
#36
01-08-2016, 09:12 AM
I'm familiar with the various water injection systems used in aviation. Flew some Garett 331s back in the days that used this to inject A/W into the engine compressor section to lower turbine inlet temps. It was effective especially at hot/high airports allowing higher GTOWs. And yes, I understand lot of the Reno air racers use various forms of this on as a previous poster pointed out. The problem using this on a road course besides the added complexity and servicing is that (unless I'm mistaken) pretty much all sanctioning bodies prohibit use of external wetting system that could drip liquid on track. External sprayers are a no go in my book. Essentially all the water/alcohol/meth systems are a relatively cheap (yet highly effective) way to band aid a lousy intercooler set up. In most cases, if you improve the intercooler, you will do away (or greatly reduce) the need for the added complexity of such band aids. That is the goal and the aerospace intercooler is the solution, albeit not a a cheap one. Obviously nothing precludes anyone from also running meth in conjunction with it for ever greater results. I just know most guys that track these cars subscribe to the KISS concept (keep it simple stupid!). I know I do...
#37
01-08-2016, 10:43 AM
To chime in on Quick968's point about intercooler misters,... there are "Intelligent" inter-cooler misting systems available.
Subarus STI's do have IC misting systems from the factory,.. (as well as shift lights, shift beepers, etc). The US and Japanese markets differs though. In the Japanese market the spray system can be left on,. and it will run anytime the boost is over a certain pressure. The US system is just a momentary push-button that runs the system while pressed,.. and for 2 sec after you let go. I obtained the JDM swithch and a small boost pressure switch and converted mine.
HOWEVER,. the right way to do that is with this device at the end of this article. http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article...-Part-1&A=0527
It uses thermistors to measure incoming air temp and temp leaving the IC core,.. then also measures injector duty-cycle (or was it throttle position?) and uses fuzzy logic to calculate a spray duration.
So if the IC temps are hot,.. but it's about that hot outside,. there's little point in spraying (it would be fighting an uphill battle,.. and just run itself out of water).
Conversely,.. if you're hard on the throttle a LOT (like at a track day),.. it will spray much longer than normal,.. because it figures you're highly likely to be hard on the gas again very soon,... and it should cool the IC.s even longer, so as to get a head start for that next high-boost event.
I have one of the systems in my basement,.. but never installed it.
Subarus STI's do have IC misting systems from the factory,.. (as well as shift lights, shift beepers, etc). The US and Japanese markets differs though. In the Japanese market the spray system can be left on,. and it will run anytime the boost is over a certain pressure. The US system is just a momentary push-button that runs the system while pressed,.. and for 2 sec after you let go. I obtained the JDM swithch and a small boost pressure switch and converted mine.
HOWEVER,. the right way to do that is with this device at the end of this article. http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article...-Part-1&A=0527
It uses thermistors to measure incoming air temp and temp leaving the IC core,.. then also measures injector duty-cycle (or was it throttle position?) and uses fuzzy logic to calculate a spray duration.
So if the IC temps are hot,.. but it's about that hot outside,. there's little point in spraying (it would be fighting an uphill battle,.. and just run itself out of water).
Conversely,.. if you're hard on the throttle a LOT (like at a track day),.. it will spray much longer than normal,.. because it figures you're highly likely to be hard on the gas again very soon,... and it should cool the IC.s even longer, so as to get a head start for that next high-boost event.
I have one of the systems in my basement,.. but never installed it.
Last edited by Duckstu; 01-08-2016 at 10:45 AM.
#38
03-10-2016, 11:50 AM
The discussion of meth/water injection here seems to go against what pwdrhound is trying to achieve. We all know what meth/water does and it's advantages however for the small percentage of us who road race it is not the best option for a few reasons. One is the fact we need to keep things SIMPLE because stuff breaks at the track all the time. Most of us don't have the budget, pit crew, or spare parts to solve our problems trackside. Secondly some racing organizations don't allow things such as meth to be run on a car as well as some classifications. I can totally understand pwdrhound's quest to have something better based on his goals. I'm in the same boat and looking forward to the results of his quest. Subscribed
#39
03-11-2016, 03:13 PM
Alright....2.5 pages of comments that do not add to this thread. Let's not lose focus. Start your own water/meth thread and enlighten the forum over there if need be. Pwdrhound seems to be one of the few with a purpose built car (track rat)...so if he wants to improve air to air intercooler options then...can we just let it be that and move on?
Looking forward to seeing your development unfold.
Looking forward to seeing your development unfold.
#41
03-21-2016, 04:14 PM
I'm very interested in buying a set of these. Happy to be an early adopter if helpful? Currently run GT2 RS coolers with large GT2 hybrid turbos. My tuner 9e will no doubt be happy to test them back to back as if you come up with a solution equal to or better than Secans they will be buying lots of these from you for their customers.
Wish you well with the project.
Wish you well with the project.
#42
03-21-2016, 05:36 PM
One point please to consider - for the 996 Turbo platform, please build in a blanking plate in the end tanks so that a BOV can be fitted, if required. This is quite important, as a lot of the 996 builds we do this. Something to consider now.
Ken
#43
03-21-2016, 07:33 PM
Happy to test these - we are running 9e28 car in a few weeks with the gt2rs intercoolers to over 200mph. We will have all the data - I can arrange afterwards to do the identical test.
One point please to consider - for the 996 Turbo platform, please build in a blanking plate in the end tanks so that a BOV can be fitted, if required. This is quite important, as a lot of the 996 builds we do this. Something to consider now.
Ken
One point please to consider - for the 996 Turbo platform, please build in a blanking plate in the end tanks so that a BOV can be fitted, if required. This is quite important, as a lot of the 996 builds we do this. Something to consider now.
Ken
Pm me your information as well. There will be several options as far as the end tanks go including having the OEM clip in ends or the slip over variety depending on customer request. I believe an end tank arrangement that would allow one to incorporate BOVs will not be a problem.
Having 0-200mph data in a controlled environment will be great.. Not really any place to do that in the US. I have lots of data from 25+ minute prolonged track sessions so the 0-200 will be a nice data point to have..
#44
03-22-2016, 02:24 AM
997 and 991 with stock VTGS will benefit the most as they generate the most heat.
#45
03-22-2016, 11:33 PM
If you are familiar with the Intercoolers that Toby (TB993TT) is running on his 7GT2, ours are a step up from those. We obtained specs on the cores that were used on his application and requested an improvement on those. Based on data, our aerospace cores show an additional 15% improvement over Toby's cores which are very impressive to begin with..