No tuner is much better than the rest. No matter what they claim.

Nowadays some people new to the modding come to me and say how the US tuners are much better than the ones in Europe. A company in US offers more horsepower with less cost, should be amazing right ?

Anyway look at the parts the company offers with the package, because the real power differences with another ECUs, exhausts etc. are really small.

When searching for the correct package, you should think is there something wrong if a company X gets 25% more power with 25% less parts changed than a company Y...

Just wanted to share this story because I've heard too much complaining that European tuners don't offer enough power etc etc... How many of these kind of folks have really driven a car with a lot of parts from Manthey/RUF/Techart/9FF/etc... They might have the claimed power rating a bit lower but there's been a lot of surprises on the road...(Actually they are not surprised anymore).

It's easy to pull great numbers on a dyno... It's a bit different when driving extended periods doing accelerations in the 150mph-210mph range.

Decided to write this post because what happened on Autobahn many times with high speed tests, an old 530 hp 996 Turbo was just as fast as "a 610 hp 997 Turbo" with a race gas option to 690hp.

Same kind of stugg has happened with different cars, that claim great power with fewer parts. I know there are (got some here in Finland too, for example Porsche GT700s from EVOMS) VERY QUICK cars with US tuners parts but then you quickly see that they have really changed the critical parts for more power. Not only some cosmetic engine or other bolt-on mods that should give easily +xxxhp, or so they claim

(Actually I don't like much every kind of bolt on mods that gives you "+15hp"...they don't offer you true speed differences on the road...)

Some companies tell that to achieve that 530hp on a 996TT you don't need upgraded turbos, well this car had a package with comes with upgraded turbos even on that power level.

Same with the 996 GT2, some US tuners claim that it's good for 600hp with a chip and exhaust and stuff, then there are cars with same mods rated at 525 hp and there's no difference between them on the road.

In a way the same goes for the 997TT, most companies tell that you need to change the turbos to achieve real 600hp++, well that particular company says that you don't have to.

And I'm not bashing the US tuners because why should I!? I've got at the moment 2 European cars (Porsche & BMW) in my garage and both have some engine upgrade parts from US, and I'm quite pleased with the results.

Just remember that if a company offers for example a 580 hp package from Europe with upgraded turbos for the 997TT and other company offers 610hp with the stock turbos, use your brain a bit before telling which one is the faster or better choice That was my only point!

ps. Yes I know that everything is bigger in the States, the dyno numbers too and can't blame anyone on that...

ps2. I might be sounding like an annoying ***, but had to clear a bit my thoughts because some guys think the opposite. Anyway here's a recent pic of me in action from the Nürburging:

Cheers,

 

I agree, it would be nice to see a real world shoot out between the different European tuned and US tuned cars

But I guess that is not going to happen anytime soon

At least then you would have the real performance gains

Mike

 

Nice car! Now the counterpoint, when my car was at 600 flywheel hp it ran dead even with a RUF 550 package. Is that because my car didn't have 600 hp? NO it is because RUF is conservative and their 550 hp package makes closer to 600 hp.

To me the dyno means nothing the dragstrip will tell the story. My current GT700 has been run by many people in the high 10's at 134 to 136 mph. That confirms the hp I have.

RUF is great but overpriced in my opinion.

Thanks!

 

I just want my tuner to have a clean shop floor.

 

It has taken RUF a year to come up with the same performance for a TT with stock VTG's that many US tuners have had out for almost a year now. When the power figures were given via dyno, via GPS acceleration data, via videotape at professional timed race tracks, many people discredited all of the evidence and said it was impossible, perhaps unsustainable. Now that RUF has done it, it is simply a miracle.

Over on Rennteam people have posted GPS 0-300kph times in the low 30 second range for a tt a couple of months ago and everyone called them liars. Now the admin there tested a RUF modded TT himself and got about the same performance, and the previous skeptics act like its the second coming of Christ.

Regardless of what HP label is given, the power/performance increases over baseline are the important thing. Euro vs US tuner argument is driven by accessibility. We have limited access to their vendors, they have limited access to ours. They have regulations and guidelines, we have legal issues. Regardless, the formula for performance is hardly mythical - less backpressure, more boost, more timing, more fuel. Everyone is doing the same thing.

 

Whilst trying to keep up with Kaizu (and other pal with similar 996TT + TechArt stage 2) on the german Autobahn last week, I was able to clock 9,1 seconds for 60-130 mph sprint. Evoms states that this should happen in 8,1 seconds and mainly due to the most unofficial method of measurement*, I was very pleased with this close outcome for my 997TT with Evoms 690R -kit.

*Dark autobahn with PBOX hooked up & Kaizu disappearing into the night... :-)

I think most confusing factor with 690R kit is lack of proper definition for "100+ octane Race Gas". Once I have some spare time, I'll give it a shot with 103 RON gas and see what's the difference compared to usual 98 RON.

Then again: I think most rewarding side to tuning has been the waking of the engine. One rarely needs more than 500 hp, but the proper sound, lighter flywheel & less back pressure (==rev-sensitive engine) are something that one does not regret in a sports car like 911 Turbo!

-ESu

P.S. And yes, I didn't drive with 3 wheels at the Ring - being less experineced driver with the family, I somehow got scared about the Ring with this powerful car and stayed constantly on 4 wheels....

 

98 RON is only about 93-94 PON octane in the US. The 690 kit is designed in race mode to use 100 PON which equates to 105 RON in the EU. The octane makes a huge difference in these motors. The race mode dials in more aggressive ignition timing, which will cause predetonation/pinging if the octane is not high enough. When the engine's knock sensors detect pinging it will retard the timing to much less aggressive levels to protect the engine, and thus losing power.

 

could it be that the HP difference we have between EU and US that some print the net HP on the crank/clutch and others on the wheel ?

It would be the same as they show differences in the bike world f.e. between yamaha and ducati... where the HP numbers are not at the same source taken as much as I know and heard (from official bike dealerships)

If I compare my test figures between my sportec 561 hp and 812 Nm (abt 605 ft torque) to a 630 US hp car, I cant really see any real difference.

But as you all already know, the only truth we'll find is on the street.....

 

Open invitation for the tuners, bring it on guys (EVOMS, AWE, RUF etc etc)

Mike

 

I see the point you are making, however I cannot agree with the statement " no tuner is better than the rest". There are a ton of factors that go into properly "tuning" these cars and different companies go about it in different ways. I guess the main discussion here is engine work and the most important factor is engine software/electronics. Some companies flat out produce better software than others. If you break down certain tuners' coding/encryptions on software you can see how effeciently they use boost, fuel trim, and timing. A lot of comapines use aggressive software on stock turbos and produce great results. Other compaines opt for larger turbos with less agressive software because they feel that it is better for day to day use and turbo/internal engine life. There is no wrong way to produce this power, just different avenues in which to obtain it. It all depends on that particular tuners' beliefs and principles. There are some very experienced tuners out there who have built serious cars with proven results. Me personally, I would rather pay the premium to have products on my car from these particular tuners because I want the power, but most importantly dependability. That is the most important thing when tuning a car i believe. just my 2 cents

 

I think people forget the term "driveability" as well.

BTW, are there any other tuners than Ruf that use the Porsche VTG turbos for the
600 hp package?

Nice topic, guess why I started the 0-300 km/h thread in the 996TT forum...still waiting for the US tuners to show us some figures. Don't tell me it can't be done, your roads are the straightest in the world if R&T can do it so can you.

However, it seems the 996TT packages are just as fast as the 997TT packages.
Ie Ruf 996TT 550 is as fast as a 997TT 550 hp, and I think that will disaapoint a lot of people.
But it's Porsches fault from the beginning IMO. Even the RS6 Avant has 580 hp, more than most 550 packages regardless of tuner.

PS In terms of money back when you sell your car I disagree all tuners are the same. The CTR I from 1987 will still set you back a mighty ~150.000.

@Kaizu, I'm in Finland last week of Sept. Anywhere around Tampere for the Alihankinta (spelling)?

 

Excellent post Kaizu and nice picture.

You are making a very good point and one that has been argued for a good 3 years now.

ESu, on your way to the Nordschleiffe fill it up with the best race fuel you can find, make a small detour and stop by Manthey, ask good old Olaf and his veteran dyno room engineer to strap your car on their MAHA and do a dyno session. Get a printout, post it here, and let's talk. I understand you have modified turbos? I bet you will not go past 570BHP. With stock VTG's my bet goes down to 550BHP.

The RUF cars don't have a half a pony above their claims, if anything, they have less not more. By keep believing that Porsche and RUF understate horsepower, people are turning a blind eye to the reality.

Eclou, while RC is certainly a good writer and I enjoy his write ups, with all due respect to him, his technical knowledge is far from good, repeating what is written on other forums or what he is being told by Alois or HP Lieb does not make him an expert.

He mentioned once with a sarcastic tone that he would love to see a US tuned Porsche car ripping off the autobhan, well he must have missed a thread on a major German Porsche forum where some drivers were reporting having seen a monster 993GT2 that was crossing the autobhan at close to 200mph. It was my car, and I was on my way back from 3 days at the Nurburgring and going back to Heidelberg, a few hundred kms away, to drop off my car at Schaertl racing for suspension tuning , by the time I got there he had received 2 calls from other German Porsche drivers who I passed at the autobhan as well, and they saw the Schaertl stickers on my car. The autobhan cruise was at an average of 150mph almost all the way, a couple of GSXRs and Ducatti's had a good run for their money in the meantime. My car still runs perfectly 2 years later and a good hundred track hours, RC might need to reconsider.

Generalizing is not good, but I agree that when one sees a tuner claiming way more than anyone else with the same mods, most likely those are ponies, not real horses. This applies as much to European or US tuners, I can name several from both continents alike.

 

Erik, I was not aware that RUF has 600BHP packages with stock VTG's, are you sure they do? The modified VTG turbos only have the compressor modified.

I agree with you it would be interesting to see some 0-300kph runs.

 

Don't get me started. I love the preview/gossip info that comes from that board but it is a very, very closed-minded group of individuals with little understanding of the "why" or "how" behind the performance.

 

Um, yeah. Had them in for months.

https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...&highlight=VTG