REAL WORLD 996 GT3 vs GT-R
#61
05-04-2008, 06:25 PM
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What I see there is a totally stock GTR with factory wheels and a race prepped 997 GT3 complete with trailer, track wheels , tool kit.
Can't wait for the real world outcome of that one.
By the way, I love Porsche, but its
to witness the volume and level of GTR performance denial in this forum.
To answer your question, I already own a 996tt and I wouldn't trade that for either car.
I was looking for another car to compliment it, GTR wins hands down.
If it was going to be an only car, I would test both back to back for comfort,performance and value and be happy with either.
If for track only and price is not a consideration, the GT3. When the V spec gets here, that might affect my decision re track car.
Can't wait for the real world outcome of that one.
By the way, I love Porsche, but its
to witness the volume and level of GTR performance denial in this forum.To answer your question, I already own a 996tt and I wouldn't trade that for either car.
I was looking for another car to compliment it, GTR wins hands down.
If it was going to be an only car, I would test both back to back for comfort,performance and value and be happy with either.
If for track only and price is not a consideration, the GT3. When the V spec gets here, that might affect my decision re track car.
#62
05-04-2008, 07:08 PM
That's a uber modified Cayman, that for some reason you get off on comparing to a stock GT-R. It's even funnier when you consider the overall investment of the Cayman is probably twice that of the GT-R. I think I'm missing something lol
Last edited by timeattack07gt; 05-04-2008 at 07:15 PM.
#63
05-04-2008, 08:06 PM
Care to enlighten us on what it is and what mods ....and then what relevance
it has to the the merits of a stock GTR to a stock 997TT or stock GT3?
it has to the the merits of a stock GTR to a stock 997TT or stock GT3?
#64
05-04-2008, 08:10 PM
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: ga
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Rep Power: 550 I've followed OLOA results for several years now and there are very few stock cars that finish in the top flight. Without seeing the specifications of the other cars, the results are meaningless.
How do we know the GTR is standard?
http://2009gtr.blogspot.com/2008/05/...f-america.html
But your question just furthers my point, nobody knows what the stock GTR is being compared to here.
The GT3 driver has probably slept with his car he's had it that long. The GTR guy is driving a brand new car.
Because it's irrelevant. There's no use crying over spilt milk my little goat.
How do we know the GTR is standard?
http://2009gtr.blogspot.com/2008/05/...f-america.html
But your question just furthers my point, nobody knows what the stock GTR is being compared to here.
The GT3 driver has probably slept with his car he's had it that long. The GTR guy is driving a brand new car.
Because it's irrelevant. There's no use crying over spilt milk my little goat.
So road and track is irrelevant now. You may as well just admit defeat to make a comment like that. You keep dodging the true fact, that you cant rely on the magazines that you are hanging your hat on, and this is purely putting them in their place.
But I understand why you are avoiding the topic, because there is no rebuttal. It's CHECK AND MATE.
When you're ready to talk about the real issue, let me know, until then, keep making up excuses for the failure of your magazine fantasy world.
#65
05-04-2008, 08:19 PM
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Rep Power: 550 You've dismissed all the objective magazine testing: same track,same driver,stock cars, and rationalise that those results mean nothing because: somebody,somewhere, sometime is going to beat the GTR around a race track.
AND
I've provided credible evidence to show exactly why those tests are bogus, there is data telemetry and videos to prove it. The simple concepts behind going fast on a circuit are not known to you as well as your fanboy friends, so you cant see where propaganda has entered and reality has fled. When you can argue my technical and visual arguements with proper track related talk, then you let me know, until then, you can keep running back to your denial card, because it's the only one you have left to play, when in fact you are the one in denial and dont have the knowledge to prove otherwise even if you werent.
When that occurs in a GT3 or 997tt (irrespective of the relative experience of the drivers or the mods), it will mean that the 997TT/GT3 is a better/faster car and all the mag comparisons were staged.
I've stated the relative experiences, and they havent mattered to any of you, not to mention no rebuttals to the road and track debate from ANY OF YOU.
WHY IS THAT? BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO ANSWER.
You should either desist from peddling such irrational dribble
OR
Go and see one of of Sigmund's modern colleagues.
Choose one of the above options, and everything will be ok.
AND
I've provided credible evidence to show exactly why those tests are bogus, there is data telemetry and videos to prove it. The simple concepts behind going fast on a circuit are not known to you as well as your fanboy friends, so you cant see where propaganda has entered and reality has fled. When you can argue my technical and visual arguements with proper track related talk, then you let me know, until then, you can keep running back to your denial card, because it's the only one you have left to play, when in fact you are the one in denial and dont have the knowledge to prove otherwise even if you werent.
When that occurs in a GT3 or 997tt (irrespective of the relative experience of the drivers or the mods), it will mean that the 997TT/GT3 is a better/faster car and all the mag comparisons were staged.
I've stated the relative experiences, and they havent mattered to any of you, not to mention no rebuttals to the road and track debate from ANY OF YOU.
WHY IS THAT? BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO ANSWER.
You should either desist from peddling such irrational dribble
OR
Go and see one of of Sigmund's modern colleagues.
Choose one of the above options, and everything will be ok.
I'm done arguing with people who cant provide a SOLID ARGUEMENT and continue to ignore the issues they have surely been defeated on without admitting it.
Z07
Rafiki
So postaways you guys, but until you answer the real issues you get ignored.
petevb has presented some worthy arguements, which have been shot down, but I'm willing to hear what he has to say since he seems to know at least a little something.
#66
05-04-2008, 08:45 PM
The wheels pictured on the 996 GT3 are stock dimensions. They were used in SCCA autocross events in stock class competition.
Ian's 2007 SCCA championship is in autocross, not road course events. He has been running a Civic in SSC for last year or so at SCCA events.
Ian does not own the car - the owner is Peter, who is not doing the road course driving. Ian used to drive the car in autocross events.
Last edited by ssgt3; 05-05-2008 at 02:48 PM.
#68
05-04-2008, 09:08 PM
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: ga
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Rep Power: 550 Just an FYI:
The wheels pictured on the 996 GT3 are stock dimensions. They were used in SCCA autocross events in stock class competition.
Ian's 2007 SCCA championship is in autocross, not road course events. He has been running a Civic in SSB for last year or so at SCCA events.
Ian does not own the car - the owner is Peter, who is not doing the road course driving. Ian used to drive the car in autocross events.
The wheels pictured on the 996 GT3 are stock dimensions. They were used in SCCA autocross events in stock class competition.
Ian's 2007 SCCA championship is in autocross, not road course events. He has been running a Civic in SSB for last year or so at SCCA events.
Ian does not own the car - the owner is Peter, who is not doing the road course driving. Ian used to drive the car in autocross events.
Not only that a 996 GT3 that's built for superstock which only allows minor suspension shims for camber adjustment, and a bunch of stuff for safety and reliability (hoses, brake lines etc.) No weight reduction, no power mods, only a catback exhaust.
So you can make beleive that this is some seriously modded 996 GT3 if you want, but it has no competitive advantage other than the aligment over a stock GT3, and we saw the GT-R getting an alignment in the photos, so if you have the stock specs for the alignment to show they didnt change it, then please show it.
Otherwise, this is stock vs stock ownage. The 997 GT3 would be worse, garaunteed.
Please come up with more excuses, the GT-R driver has beaten pros in the same car on the same circuit before, the GT3 driver is just very good at auto-cross. I dont see a competitive advantage there.
Pwned.
#69
05-04-2008, 09:38 PM
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: ga
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Rep Power: 550 Right, a stock weight 385 hp GT3 equals a CGT.
Enjoy your ring times.
#72
05-04-2008, 10:18 PM
For those still curious about the Cayman in the One Lap that Leh Keen is driving, the upgrades are as follows:
X51 crate engine with custom intake and exhaust (390HP at the crank, 400 if using 100 octane)
LSD
Moton Clubsport shocks, custom spring rates
various GT3 and Cup car suspension bits, including LCAs, rear toe links, etc
997 front bodywork
Fikse wheels
carbon fiber rear deck lid with lexan window
various carbon fiber small bits (mirrors, scoops, rear wing)
lightweight flywheel
PCCBs
euro GT3 seats
timetrial legal roll bar/harnesses
GT3 RS steering wheel, shifter, parking brake handle
997 ABS module
probably a few more things slipping my mind...
Another tidbit: Tony won the June Sprints at Road America in something this past year, so he's likely very good at that track. Ian does have a lot of time in that GT3 and is an excellent driver, particularly at something like this. It's really just a big exercise in looking ahead and being smooth, and he's good, period. He not only won the SuperStock National Championship last year, he beat some damned fine PRO drivers to do it in similar equipment (including Gary Thomason, one of the best drivers in the country who was also in a GT3). Ian was also voted Solo Driver of the Year by his peers.
And the least related tidbit, my car will be back in this event with more power and more grip.
--Donnie
X51 crate engine with custom intake and exhaust (390HP at the crank, 400 if using 100 octane)
LSD
Moton Clubsport shocks, custom spring rates
various GT3 and Cup car suspension bits, including LCAs, rear toe links, etc
997 front bodywork
Fikse wheels
carbon fiber rear deck lid with lexan window
various carbon fiber small bits (mirrors, scoops, rear wing)
lightweight flywheel
PCCBs
euro GT3 seats
timetrial legal roll bar/harnesses
GT3 RS steering wheel, shifter, parking brake handle
997 ABS module
probably a few more things slipping my mind...
Another tidbit: Tony won the June Sprints at Road America in something this past year, so he's likely very good at that track. Ian does have a lot of time in that GT3 and is an excellent driver, particularly at something like this. It's really just a big exercise in looking ahead and being smooth, and he's good, period. He not only won the SuperStock National Championship last year, he beat some damned fine PRO drivers to do it in similar equipment (including Gary Thomason, one of the best drivers in the country who was also in a GT3). Ian was also voted Solo Driver of the Year by his peers.
And the least related tidbit, my car will be back in this event with more power and more grip.
--Donnie
#73
05-04-2008, 10:31 PM
Join Date: Jul 2006
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So donnie, in your opinion how significant is the GT3 driver advantage related to the supposed car disadvantage? From watching the two drive does it look like the GT3 is just being driven better?
Is Ian THAT much better than Tony to have no experience at a track and it be all driver that got him around the track at only 1 sec per lap slower on average, and then 4 seconds a lap faster at Mid America?
I think for a guy that won sprint races to only be essentially 1 sec/lap ahead of a 996 GT3 who's driver hadnt been there before speaks volumes. Most people seem to think very highly of Tony's driving.
I'm not saying the drivers are equal, but Ian completely destroyed the GT-R at Mid America and was so close at Road America to have never been there before.
Is Ian THAT much better than Tony to have no experience at a track and it be all driver that got him around the track at only 1 sec per lap slower on average, and then 4 seconds a lap faster at Mid America?
I think for a guy that won sprint races to only be essentially 1 sec/lap ahead of a 996 GT3 who's driver hadnt been there before speaks volumes. Most people seem to think very highly of Tony's driving.
I'm not saying the drivers are equal, but Ian completely destroyed the GT-R at Mid America and was so close at Road America to have never been there before.
#74
05-04-2008, 10:43 PM
heavy, I can't really say. I didn't see either of them at Road America, and I didn't see Tony today. I saw Ian today and he looked very good.
If I had to guess, I'd say that yeah, Ian outdrove Tony today by a chunk. Ian's car doesn't have many mods, but I do believe the handling and alignment are well developed, particularly for something like Mid America. That track is flat as heck and not very big. Leh keeps getting mad at me for saying this, but it looked like a big fast autocross course to me. Flat, lots of transition, not a lot of straightaway.
Tony, OTOH, has little seat time in that car. He's out-tired, too. He's running RE070's against PS2's. Plus he could probably get more tire on there, I'd bet. My gut says apples to apples that the GT-R is faster than a 996 GT3. But getting apples to apples means a good bit of development time on the GT-R, too.
--Donnie
If I had to guess, I'd say that yeah, Ian outdrove Tony today by a chunk. Ian's car doesn't have many mods, but I do believe the handling and alignment are well developed, particularly for something like Mid America. That track is flat as heck and not very big. Leh keeps getting mad at me for saying this, but it looked like a big fast autocross course to me. Flat, lots of transition, not a lot of straightaway.
Tony, OTOH, has little seat time in that car. He's out-tired, too. He's running RE070's against PS2's. Plus he could probably get more tire on there, I'd bet. My gut says apples to apples that the GT-R is faster than a 996 GT3. But getting apples to apples means a good bit of development time on the GT-R, too.
--Donnie
#75
05-04-2008, 10:53 PM
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Thanks Donnie, it's pretty obvious that Ian outdrove Tony today to have such a big gap. I do think overall the GT-R is faster than the 996 GT3, but it can still be competitive. And from watching Leh's video at MA from last year, I agree it does look somewhat like an auto-x and really diminishes hp advantages. As do all of Alan Wilson's (who hate's high speeds) tracks. So from that aspect I can see how Ian would have had an even greater advantage with his autocross background.
I have had an in depth conversation with Hank Cohn (Leh knows him) who now owns a 996 GT3 with tons of suspension developement and even with all of that he said his 997 GT3 he recently sold was faster. Now Ian doesnt have nearly as much (bushing, motor mounts, 4 ways, etc) so I doubt his car would be more potent than Hanks and therefore substantially slower than the same driver in a 997 GT3.
My comparison is moreso to show that the 997 GT3 is faster than the GT-R on the circuit, it's certainly faster than that modified 996 GT3 whereas the GT-R will possibly need some developement.
As for the tires RE070's have a much better tread rating and have been known to be stickier than the PS2's from what I've seen and read. What is your experience based on?
Thanks for posting and good luck tommorrow. I know the drag strip wont be you guys best are, but Leh knows TWS pretty well so you should do as good as you can with the big hp gap and high speeds.
I have had an in depth conversation with Hank Cohn (Leh knows him) who now owns a 996 GT3 with tons of suspension developement and even with all of that he said his 997 GT3 he recently sold was faster. Now Ian doesnt have nearly as much (bushing, motor mounts, 4 ways, etc) so I doubt his car would be more potent than Hanks and therefore substantially slower than the same driver in a 997 GT3.
My comparison is moreso to show that the 997 GT3 is faster than the GT-R on the circuit, it's certainly faster than that modified 996 GT3 whereas the GT-R will possibly need some developement.
As for the tires RE070's have a much better tread rating and have been known to be stickier than the PS2's from what I've seen and read. What is your experience based on?
Thanks for posting and good luck tommorrow. I know the drag strip wont be you guys best are, but Leh knows TWS pretty well so you should do as good as you can with the big hp gap and high speeds.
Last edited by heavychevy; 05-04-2008 at 10:57 PM.