Technology improvements in passenger sports cars over the last 20 years.

I think painting the single purpose of the PDK as being a way to make up for a lack of skill is a pretty broad, and inaccurate, stroke.

There are many technologies that have improved the performance of many cars over the years. Some even complained about those as well. If we are against tech improvements, then let's put that up across the board. Or are we picking and choosing which improvements get a pass, and which ones don't based on our own opinions and preferences?

Anyone here remember my 'Amish comment' a while back? It is becoming accurate once again...

 

Who said anything about the GT-R? Please stay on topic.

 

The fact that you own a gtr invalidates your last comment. And the gtr is a prime example of a manufacturer attempting to eliminate the need for driving skill.

More aids and newer is not always better. Case in point.

 

Having read many of your posts you sound very defensive when it comes to this topic. You regularly find yourself in these type threads (ie dual clutch PDK etc) with a thinly veiled argument around "technology" and dismissing the perspective of others who enjoy the experience of driving a manual

Even in the above post you take the argument to the extreme LOL!! The vast majority of folks aren't denying the performance benefits of an auto tranny like the PDK, they're asking to have the choice of a manual

"If you like your transmission you can keep your transmission. Period!"

 

Not a chance! (in reference to the subject line of this thread)

 

I never said newer is ALWAYS better. And maybe you're right, because the GT-R is only car I've ever owned or driven in my entire life, so it's fair to filter my posts through that lens of yours. Enjoy.

Not really defensive regarding PDK, but when a particular improvement is slammed because of one's skewed opinion (i.e. paddle shifted cars are for people who don't have driving skills) is really making a stretch, and is NOT a fair statement in any form.

Are there drivers that drive PDK equipped cars that can drive manual, but choose otherwise? Yes. To lump people together for making a choice to purchase a certain transmission (or even without a choice - sadly - like the Turbo S, and now GT3), is not remotely accurate.

Would you disagree?

Anyway, I've found that over the years, there have been people that argued against fuel injection, ABS, drive-by-wire, etc... There are purists... but I've also learned that so many people think they are a purist, but only when it comes to their individual preference.

There is a lot of engineering that goes into cars these days, and more is coming. Anyone recall the 993 -> 996 days? You'd think the world was ending. I see this as just another evolution. There were people with 993's that said the 996 isn't a real Porsche. Now we have people that prefer manual transmissions to dual clutch transmissions in the same light - it isn't a real transmission for people with skills.

It is certainly okay to have a preference. Everybody has one. But there is no way I'd criticize anyone for having it (or lump them together in a derogatory way).

 

First off, try a little bit of comprehension before getting all emotional. My statement has a huge degree of validity. Dual clutch transmissions have the effect of taking user error out of the reliability equation. Driver error is part of driving a manual, even for the best of drivers. Lack of skill is present in everyone from time to time, not one person can say they have matched every rev perfectly or never grinded a shift.

PDK eliminates that as a factor in warranty claims related to gearbox. Given the decline in overall percentage of manuals, it's even more likely than ever that huge hp sports cars in the hands of a decreasing number of people trained/experienced in manual driving, will result in broken gearboxes that the manufacturer will have to warranty no matter how hard they try not to.

However aside from that, a lot of guys buy them so they can go fast without having to learn how to drive properly, GT-R being at the top of the list. Grandma can run low 11's in it, any person who can stomp the gas and turn a wheel can turn a fast lap in it.

So my statement has multiple applications, both of which are true. Under the veil of performance, when in fact, most tests of cars with both transmissions have proven little to no difference in lap times when piloted by a skilled driver. Thereby also validating my statement.

Back to your regularly scheduled emotional rants.

 

I agree with ALMOST everything in this post...

I find it hard to believe that THIS is why people would buy the GT-R... There are usually MANY reasons people buy cars - the ability to repeat results consistently IS important to some. But to say,"I'll buy this car, because I don't know how to move a stick" is a little presumptuous.

And there have been tests (mainly shorter tests of straight line acceleration) where the dual clutch (AND automatic - i.e. Challenger) ran faster times than their manual counterparts.

I believe the first two paragraphs are spot on.

 

I bought my first P-car in 1978. Since the 993 Turbo arrived I've received one of the first Turbos my dealer received when a new model arrives. 993, 996 & 997. I was getting one of the first 991 Turbo S/Turbo S Cab allocations. When I found that the manual was not going to be available I started looking for the best manual Porsche I could find. I think I found the holy grail of manual 911s - the GT2RS.

 

I wonder if the GT2 will also be PDK only (if the speculation is true about the limiting factor being the engine not being to mate up to the manual transmission (which I don't fully understand how this can't be solved with engineering, but rather relying on bean-counters, I suppose)).

 

Yes, you got the right one. Now keep it as long as you can!!

Beautiful car man.

 

PDK any time any day. It will be the gearbox of the present & the future like it or not. IMHO, the PDK in the GT3 is the best of the lot even better than the one fitted to the Turbo S.

 

Actually these test short accel test actually favor the manual cars. If you know how to properly launch a car with a manual you will outshine PDK/DCT cars somewhat considerably. There are very few DCT/PDK cars that come from the factory letting you launch above 4,500RPM if the same car comes in manual you could launch it above 5k and get it too stick. Minus the Aventador and 991 turbo S that launch above 5,000rpm that have clear advantages but the milder launch control cars have no chance against a great driver with a stick that can rather easily pull a 0-60ft time in the 1.5-1.6sec.

 

very true about the turbo S box, The turbo "only" has the regular PDK, the GT3 has the PDK-S Just sitting in the car I found the PDK-S paddles to feel more mechanical and more substantial then those on the turbo, quite a disappointment for me

 

yes, this is because most times the dual clutch cars have launch control and can use it vs the manuals with the clutched being slipped. Still haven't seen a consistent launch control on a manual. The result is a quicker 0-60 which translates to an even bigger gap at the end of the 1/4 mile.

Dual clutch will consistently be faster from a dig for that reason. Not to mention the strength of the manual during gear changes goes back to the whole skill thing and the testers ability to figure out how to shift a new transmission quickly, and willingness to shift it as fast as they can.