Absolutely not.

I'll concede that at a certain level, let's call it "intermediate," there's a skill that needs to be mastered, probably most critically in a downshifting/trailbraking situation, but once you move past that the whole routine becomes sort of second-nature and you're just performing with muscle memory. And while, yes, even the best drivers can and do blow shifts on track, it's likely infrequent enough that I suspect it usually has little or no impact on the eventual outcome of the vast majority of motorsports competitions because, again, when you get to that level, pushing a pedal with your left foot just isn't that hard anymore

But I digress. Bottom line - if you think someone that turns a slow-*** lap time in a GT3 is suddenly going to be blowing away the field just because the 991 has a PDK system, you're just not right.

 

Good point, I'd never considered that. I'd call it advanced intermediate though. I know tons of people in HPDE "intermediate" groups that can't and don't even bother to heel-toe. They just clutch out very slowly. Then there's the folks that gave up from the start and have always had paddles, even making it to "advanced" groups. Put them in a manual though and they're lost.

 

I was talking about the GTR at that specific moment.

 

I have not read this whole thread, but my $.02 from racing is this:
Clearly a sequential shifter of this era will make your lap times faster - a manual in the same car just would not keep up.
There's a fellow racer who blew his manual tranny in his Exige and put in a Quaife sequential and he's running quite a bit faster obviously.

OTOH, there are crappy drivers with the most expensive and technologically advanced cars who run fast using the technology as a crutch, just like HP.
I agree with the comment that GTR's make everyone look like a pro racer, the car is just that advanced - kudos to Nissan. But if you want to be rewarded for driving skills with no crutches, hop into a momentum car like a Miata or SRF and go mono e mono in an SCCA race. Your talents and mistakes will all be exposed.

 

Fair enough. I'd still argue though, that (assuming they are otherwise fast, understand lines and weight transfer etc.) that makes them lacking in one particular skill, not a "bad driver" per se, if that makes sense?

I mean, I can't left foot brake to save my life (except when I do it by mistake in my SUV after driving my manual cars for a few days any of y'all ever done that?) but I'm still, by most accounts, a pretty competent track rat.

 

OK - no argument from me. In instances where you need to trailbrake and downshift for a corner, you need less skill to do so in a GTR than in a manual. But if you don't know what to do to set up for, apex and exit the corner, nailing the downshift ain't gonna help you anyway

 

Based on comments like these, one might think the GT-R is the only dual clutch car ever made.

We could replace 991 GT3 or 997 Turbo S and be just as accurate. Being as this conversation was referring to the GT3, we could just discuss that car on its own merits.

 

Maybe it's just me, but having a chance to drive my pdk c4s on / at highway speeds is of little interest. And track driving is not sometime I can do often. As American drivers we need to get from place to place quickly hence we need these divided asphalt ribbons. We're still discussing the dual clutch issue because most U.S. drivers (and quite a few Porsche drivers) have to use super highways daily rather then technical / compound rural roads. Downshifting from 70 mph w/ a pdk doesn't get as exciting as w/ a manual, whether to simply overtake a car or just, just because.

Witness the number of overly aggressive drivers on super highways, just to get home 1 minute earlier ?

It's the road traveled and selected that I look forward to w/ the pcar. And a great rural road w/ elevation change is the goal. The pdk can be a huge advantage when pressing the edge w/ curves and variable surfaces.

That said having the time for a 2,000 mile roadtrip in the c4s is special, at least once every 18 months !

 

Indeed. I was just using the GTR as the example since it tends to get picked on for this "shortcoming" more than most (And since that's where this particular conversation drifted).

 

Depends what you mean by advantage. Many of us here would argue that the 3 pedal is the advantage as what you are looking for is involvement and the manual gives you more involvement.

A recent editorial in Racecar Engineering (I think) summed it up for me: it's not the rowing of the gears per se that engages you (although that's a part of it), it's that the manual makes you plan all your moves in advance, then execute them skillfully. Corner comin up? hmm, what gear do I need to be in, where do I need to brake to give me time for the downshift, how hard to brake, when during the brake zone to downshift, how to modulate the clutch, brake, throttle, do I need to setup for a multi-complex corner, and so on. "Did I get it right?" YES: smiles all around! No: ok, I'll get it next time. With the PDK you can forget about a lot of that. Brake and turn. The computer does the rest.

 

BTW, I'd much rather have that than the sleepy drivers or half-attention texting drivers, you know the ones on autopilot that cause all the accidents due to hitting a car in slow moving traffic.

 

YES!

I don't think it is possible for me to agree more. However, this is a large can of worms...

 

Not quite, there are plenty of instances of drivers missing apexes and still turning fast laps.

As far as Jasper goes, he is just desperately defending the GT-R, as always.

Porsche does not quite tune it's cars to do as much for you, in fact, they make sure to make the Turbo slower than the GT3 by all means so the ease of drive is not at all similar. The implementation of the intervention of the nannies is just as important as which ones are on the car.

How many times have you heard a reviewer say they can feel the computers working it out, fixing errors, etc. owners say the same thing, and you most certainly can feel it constantly repairing errors in driving, and I'm not talking traction control. It feels computer driven. Ever seen people try to drift in a GT-R? The majority of them fail, and not because of traction control, because the computers won't let them. You can find videos of any 911 drifting all over the place, even the AWD ones.

Not the same as a TT, at least not any out already, you still have to drive them.

 

A car does not need defending. As I recall, you are the one who raised the GT-R in a Porsche GT3 thread regarding the PDK. Please look no further than yourself.

 

If it doesn't need defending how come every thread where the car is mentioned has you in it championing and defending it? One only need look at your post history to see the truth. Lol.