Sure - any single mistake won't necessarily make a fast lap slow, but it will make any lap "less fast" regardless of what that mistake is, and mistakes compound from turn to turn when you don't know how to read a track I see lots more blown corners from the right seat than I do missed shifts, FWIW.

I've got no dog in that particular fight. Never owned a GTR & probably never will I don't like the size and weight of the GTR, but I love that the steering feels about 2x as fast as any Porsche I've owned. Horses for courses, and all that.


Of course. I'd have to actually drive the GT-R in a track environment to say, but I strongly suspect that the R mode on the car isn't actively driving the car around a track for the driver.

I admire the skill it takes to drift a car, but I'm not sure that's the final word on the intrusiveness of an electronics system vis-a-vis the ability to turn a fast lap.

 

Sounds like a lot of what you say is not based on experience or understanding of handling dynamics. So i won't try to convince you otherwise.

 

c6z06?

 

15 years of instruction and a couple of tests for a pro seat? Yeah, no clue what I'm talking about at all.

You got some ego, son.

 

Burn.

 

So you say...... you mean you paid for test? I can't think of any pro series that try out instructors.

Experience on the subject matter as everything you say is I suspect, I guess, I think? Admittedly having never driven a GT-R.


For someone with a lot of experience you sure do a lot of guessing....

Just sayin'

 

MouseCatcher may be partially correct re: the thinking pre-execution of a turn or drift, but that isn't how I pilot my 997. The pdk still requires 110% of my attention WHEN I'm driving w/ intent. When in a different mode, the girls are in the car, or there is traffic, then this trans make a lot of decisions. Note that I still run the pdk in shift mode rather than cpu controlled.

[QUOTE= BTW, I'd much rather have that than the sleepy drivers or half-attention texting drivers, you know the ones on autopilot that cause all the accidents due to hitting a car in slow moving traffic.[/QUOTE]

Both driver types are putting others at risk. The crazy in a modified coupe is a problem either way.

 

I mean that pro team owners think enough of my driving to have me come out and run while they pull data. My driving is solid. My racecraft is crap, FWIW

But we were talking about the assistance provided by a dual-clutch box in general, right? And to what extent that advantage would allow an "unskilled" driver to hide that lack of skills. I don't have seat time in a GTR, so it's only fair to qualify any statements on the car. I *do* have extensive time on-track in my PDK Cayman R, not to mention plenty of time in stuff ranging from a Caterham 7 to an MX5 cup car to a C5Z06, so I do have a basis for understanding how much of an "advantage" the PDK gives me over those relatively analog cars.

And I admit - it's substantial in terms of *time gained* every time you shift, but my contention is that, once your skill level is substantially solid, it's not an advantage of making you a better driver, but rather an advantage in the physical time it takes to complete a shift.

 

Ok now we are getting somewhere.

I don't mean exclusively dual clutch assistance. For cars such as the GT-R as I mentioned, the dual clutch is only the beginning. The dual clutch isn't fixing errors in driving techniques and nullifying mistakes that should cause you to be off the gas for longer. Therefore a noob making lots of mistakes and being off apex can still be within a second or two of a pro driver.

Part of it is the AWD + Torque factor. Even off apex, you'd probably still be understeering some anyways in a stock car, both of which kill lap times. I'd miss an apex here and there when my car was still AWD and look at data and it wouldn't have cost me much at all. AWD cars like a bigger turning radius anyways. The Torque will allow early throttle application that can't be used too much earlier anyways due to power understeer.

Even further, the GT-R responds to understeer by braking the front inside wheel to rotate the car, this is why you see a lot of GT-R's slow in and then go to oversteer on exit because of the car over-compensating for understeer. The car basically points itself, you mash the throttle and take off. And you exit turns faster. If that's not drivers aid I don't know what is.

What happens is a car that promotes a bad driving style based on the corrections it makes. Is driving on the apex faster, yeah, but not by much, so you stick with your bad habits. So, yes, the car is basically getting you around the track. And the results will be similar, scrub or not. As long as you can be aggressive on the straights and in the braking zones, you will be fast in a GT-R. Period.

The GT-R chassis is pretty horrible as a bare chassis, once you take all of the drivers aids off, it's slow (see World Challenge) and not remotely competitive. In fact, there are street GT-R's that are faster. When you get down to the bare roots of the car, it tells you how much the aids are helping the chassis and driver go faster.

 

Fact #1 GT3 doesn't have AWD.

Fact #2 GT-R is faster with aids turned off.

 

Why is a Nissan GT-R brought up in a thread where the OP is asking who would buy a manual 6 Speed Porsche GT3? Talk about going off topic lol.

 

Can you turn off AWD or torque vectoring?

Then you just made a useless point.

 

Because there is a GT-R in my avatar, and heavy felt it was relevant. Maybe he thinks the GT-R has PDK... Not sure.
No more than you can disable AWD in a Turbo, or rear-steer in a GT3. And yes, you can disable the individual wheel torque vectoring (from right to left - front to rear is controlled by the AWD). It seems as though if you had more knowledge/experience in a GT-R, you'd know these simple things, or stop complaining about topics you don't know enough about. It also appears as though you've blurred the line to your preference of what is engineering and what is an 'aid'. Can you disable an LSD?

Enjoy.

 

You can disable the torque vectoring? How exactly?

I don't like RWS either. And have never said anything different. AWD is an aid. Just like PDK.

Your overly generic statements aren't showing much knowledge of anything. The GT-R uses electronics to do as much as possible for the driver. That much is evident to anyone who isn't trying to see otherwise.

You could put all the same crap and more on a Porsche (which is still aids nonetheless) and it still won't drive you around the track like a GT-R.

Lots of cars have TC, LC, LSD etc. but they are not all implemented the same. Some give the driver more freedom, some are over active, and some are built to do most or all of the work for the driver.

We know which one Nissan's is..... And you seem to be the only person arguing otherwise. But the facts still remain. Crappy chassis with a ton of gadgets, aids and error nullifiers to go fast. That's the simple part of the GT-R.

 

It appears I'm the only one arguing, because nobody else here is trying to discuss the GT-R in a GT3 thread, and they probably don't care.

How do you do it? Same as almost every other GT-R owner could who is driving on track: VDC-off. Why is this such a mystery to you? Are you not familiar with the car you feel so strongly against?

Everything else you mentioned is your opinion (and apparently heavily biased).