Looking to buy my first Porsche. Wondering whether those who’ve had the S e-hybrid for a few years feel about their decision now. Do you still love the car? Does have enough Porsche in it’s genes for satisfaction?

 

I traded mine in for a 911 after 18 months of ownership. So for me the answer was "no."

It wasn't really a bad car - but at root, it's a high-performance station wagon, not a sports coupe. Whether that's good enough for you really depends on what you need and what you want.

I do regret giving up the cargo capacity on a regular basis. If I decided I absolutely had to own a car that could lug things, I'd much rather own a Panamera than any SUV, including the Cayenne or Macan. Where I found I didn't like the Panamera's sedan-like driving position, too far off the ground compared to a sports coupe cockpit, it's still much lower than the seats for Porsche's SUVs.

The Panamera is a big car. I found maneuvering it to be a chore, and I had to correct my parking almost every time because I simply could not turn tight enough to make a clean entry on a simple turn-in. The exception being if I could pull through to a spot in the next row, that gave me enough distance to straighten out without backing up.

Rear visibility is poor due to the length of the car, which makes the big glass rear window into a tiny porthole, and the width of the C pillars. Rear cameras and lane change assist are a must, and preferably the Surround View cameras (which I had).

On the plus side, cornering grip is excellent, and in Sport or Sport+ mode acceleration is acceptable. Roughly on par with, say, a base Cayman. Low end torque is halfway decent because of the electric motor. Depending on what you're comparing it to, this may seem great (if your basis is a regular sedan) or poor (if your basis is a 911 S).

Performance in e-Power mode is roughly on par with a regular sedan. Not just because it favors electric-only power, but because the shift points are heavily tuned toward fuel economy. Despite what the literature says, flooring it in e-Power mode is still noticeably slow.

It's worth pointing out, though, that e-Power is fine if you're in traffic behind most cars. The electric motor is only rated at 95 HP, but it's enough to keep up with typical traffic. To be blunt, most people are driving cars with barely better power-to-weight ratios than the Panamera SeH on electric only, and they don't push them.

Electric power delivery tends to get a bit spotty if it's freezing out. The car insists on running the gasoline engine to warm up the oil, and only shifts to pure-electric once that's done. So short trips in the winter tend to be mostly on gas.

The 12 volt system is separate from the the high-voltage traction battery. While the high-voltage system can charge the 12 volt system while the car is running, just like an alternator, it doesn't do that when the car is off. Even if the car is plugged in and the high-voltage system is charging.

This is not as much of a concern as normal, since it's the high-voltage system that acts as a car starter, not the 12 volt system, but it still bothered me since I don't drive daily. The car does not like 12 volt battery maintainers connected via cigarette jack, unlike conventional cars. This always made me a bit nervous, but it never proved to be an actual problem.

 

Gus - excellent and thorough reply. Exactly the detail I was looking for. My experience comes from an Infiniti FX35, so I don't come from a very high performance expectation. That said, I wouldn't want a Porsche if it didn't have a great deal of get up and go when asked. This is subjective, I know, but do you think in Sport mode (no Plus on models I'm looking at) the car still has oomph like a Panamera S with similar HP? The electric experience you describe is what I would expect and could live with, but the ICE experience would have to be solid. I've only test driven the S e-hybrid and have no other Porsche experience to compare it to. Thanks again for your thorough input.

 

Sport vs. Sport+ isn't really that huge a difference. It's more about the fuel-efficiency tuning of e-Power mode than anything else. The problem is that switching modes is a clumsy, since the mode buttons are on the center console and you can't really hit them by feel.

This means that either you're driving in Sport mode all the time, and missing most of the benefit of the hybrid, or you have to be very deliberate about when you're going to ask the car for more power. Typically at a stop because you're looking away from the road. It turned me off that I'd be driving in e-Power for efficiency and I'd get an expected break in traffic and I wouldn't get to have any fun.

When I decided I needed more than the S e Hybrid, I looked at a Panamera GTS and a Panamera Turbo as well as a few sport coupes. Below about 5000 RPM, the GTS felt very much like the S e Hybrid in Sport mode in power delivery. It wasn't until I got into high RPMs that it was noticeably different. So, yeah, despite the extra weight, I'd say the Panamera S e Hybrid in Sport mode is comparable to an S, but only in Sport mode.

The 2017 and later models (Panamera 4 e-Hybrid, Turbo S e-Hybrid) have a mode dial on the steering wheel, rather than buttons on the center console (but for 4eH's, only if the car has the Sport Chrono option). This helps the issue of power on demand much better - particularly since they've got the "go fast" push button that give you Sport+ for 20 seconds regardless of your current driving mode.

 

I doubt anyone who owns an SeH is in love with it.
We treat ours like the fancy commuter car that it is. Nothing more, nothing less. Bought it to get HOV plates. After a miserable first year, it's been mostly reliable and cheap to maintain. 38000 miles. Original brakes still have plenty of life on them. Original tires would still be on it, if not for a massive pothole destroying two of them, along with the wheels.

In Sport mode, the car has some grunt off the line, but the transmission is an old school Tip, not a PDK, so there isn't much fun operating the push/pull shifter buttons. In the handling department, I would describe the car as very "pointy" meaning that it is neutral and very accurate. It easily outhandles my E63S in the dry.

The depreciation has been unlike anything I have ever owned. $120K msrp. Worth maybe 1/3 of that three years later. As a CPO it's probably a big fat Buy.

 

ace10 and Gus- thank you for your honest and clearly heartfelt summary of your experience. You seem to have come to similar conclusions through different early experiences with this car. The take home message I’m hearing is that, in general, the car has failed to perform up to each of your expectations. That conclusion, however, could equally apply if the car failed to PERFORM or if it failed to live up to EXPECTATIONS. I have no background with high end sports cars. In fact, I’ve never owned, driven, or even ridden in a Porsche before looking into and test driving the S e-hybrid. I’m attracted to this car as a fun sports sedan with a lot of style and comfort as well as some get up and go while also doing my part to lessen my carbon footprint. I don’t expect 911 or Turbo performance, but I want at least as much as I would get with a more staid sedan like an Audi A6 or A7. At $120,000 one has a right to expect much more than that; as a CPO at around half that price (more or less depending on mileage), it still sounds intriguing to me. Given those lower expectations and price, would you warn me off the car?

 

Oddly enough, there are a lot of people who are absolutely fanatically in love with their Teslas - and aside from your miserable first year (which we've discussed before), I think it's a similar experience. "Fancy commuter car" is a fairly good description of a Model S. More grunt if you have a 90D rather than a rear-wheel drive 85, but not in the same class in terms of handling. And of course no shifting experience at all, since Tesla opted to go with a single-speed transmission.

 

I wrote about my experience with the Tesla sales process a few years back. I would never, not ever, give that freak cult a penny of my money.

Curiously enough, I got an email and a series of voice mails from them over them this summer. Three years after I told them to pound sand. They are desperate to sell units. Not just a little desperate, either. And if the US Taxpayer welfare that E Musk has been enjoying all these years is cut off, that company is doomed.

 

I missed your write-up of Tesla. I hadn't intended to imply that you'd buy one; I was saying that there's a segment out there that's fanatically loyal to a car that's very similar to the PSeH.

While I don't know about Tesla's sales force, or the cult or non-cult nature of the company, it's true that the customers feel remarkably cultish. At least, the ones that are vocal online are weirdly fanatical about the car.

Of course, it's not really about the "large performance sedan" form-factor (though I really think both cars are closer to station wagons than sedans). It's about Tesla's cars being the only truly practical pure-electric vehicles. Partly due to range, but mostly because of the Supercharger network that makes it possible to use them beyond local driving.

I don't think the EV subsidy really has much effect on Tesla's bottom line. Tesla doesn't get the money, and I don't think a $7,500 incentive on a $100k car changes the sales substantially.

The Model 3's another story, since it's a $35k car, and the $7,500 incentive is very significant at that price level. Even though the Model 3 is now finally in production, it's not yet a big part of their income. Not that their 10Q breaks down sales by model, it's just "automotive sales" and "automotive leasing."

It's true that TSLA loses money every year, and certainly I would never invest in them. What's kept them afloat isn't so much tax policies as Elon Musk's charisma. TSLA raises more capital every year - $400 million in stock sales and $5.4 billion in corporate debt in the last 9 months, according to the current 10Q - and the only reason I can imagine that banks continue to buy that corporate debt is Elon Musk's ability to convince them that the company will be profitable someday.

 

You sound a bit like I did in early 2014, when I ordered my PSeH.

I don't know what your motivations are, exactly, but I can talk about mine. I got really psyched about the idea of an electric sports car. I wasn't looking for a sports car in general; I'd been driving a sports coupe for 16 years, and the paper specs for the PSeH's performance were on par with what I was driving.

I didn't really want a large sedan like the Panamera, but the alternatives for "electric sports car" were the BMW i8, which was out of my price range at the time, and the Telsa Model S, which simply did not feel sporty enough for me, despite the acceleration figures. It didn't help that reliability of the Model S looked quite spotty. Edmund's sample had its drivetrain replaced twice in 20K miles, and CR has only recently upgraded Tesla's general reliability from "below average" to "average."

I was really dead set on buying one, and didn't really want to hear any reasons not to buy one. My wife strongly objected to the purchase. I ended up getting permission to buy my PSeH by purchasing a Cayman S for her. I ended up regretting my purchase, but the decision to buy the Cayman turned out to be a good one; she absolutely loves the car, to a degree that she's never loved any other car she owns.

I never hated the Panamera; ace10 had a truly terrible, terrible experience with his first year with the car, and I didn't. I was enthusiastic for a few months with playing around with the electric modes, but eventually I came to a place where I realized I simply didn't enjoy driving it half as much as the sports coupe I owned before it.

If you're really OK with driving a big sedan / station wagon, you'll probably be OK with the car. You have to know that, though. I expect it'll be a big leg up from an Infiniti FX35. Faster, more luxurious, and more fuel-efficient even without pure-electric mode. My real-world experience was that I often got 30-35 MPG on long trips, and 600-700 miles on a tank of gas. Mickey6 has some screen shots of 1000 miles to a tank.

Luxurious? Definitely. The Panamera had the most comfortable ride of any car I've ever owned. I had passengers make the same sort of comment.

Stylish? Not so much. I thought the looks were OK, but man, the vast majority of people out there seem to hate the looks of the 2010-2016 Panameras. The 2017 revision changed minds, but it was sometimes a tough slog reading all the negativity on car forums about my 2015. I did get a couple of compliments on it in person, but it's still not a widely loved car.

I think it is possible to really like a Panamera S e Hybrid. Not for me or Ace10, but for someone coming to it from a decidedly non-sporty car, yeah. I was driving a Subaru station wagon back in '97, if I'd moved directly from something like that to the Panamera, I would have been blow away.

 

Not to spin this thread of out its intended orbit, but TSLA customers (and TSLA indirectly) were given something in the range of $500,000,000 in US Taxpayer money in 2016 . I submit that it does have an impact on consumer decisions. If it didn't, then TSLA wouldn't bake it right into the price they show you when you use their website to build a car.

As for mpg on the PSeH, if one is willing to massage the mode buttons, one can stretch it quite a bit. My wife, who drives it daily, is uninterested in doing so and yields very so-so mpg. I've tried to show her some techniques, but I'm met with a face that says NFW. Her current commute is not plug-in friendly, so she only gets about 600 miles/tank.

The car is definitely large. It's wide. It's super long. Visibility isn't great. But I could certainly DD it if I had to. Setting aside winter weather issues. The 20" wheel/tires are vulnerable to damage just like every other car with rubber bands for sidewalls. It was a small fortune to sort out the pothole strike I mentioned earlier.

The OP should consider how they plan to feed those batteries. Using 110v isn't viable IMO. And also try to log some extended seat time in the 14 way vs 18 way. We have the 14 way, and they are not comfortable for me after about two hours.

Overall the car is fine. I wouldn't buy another new PSeH, not that that is an option. I might consider leasing the second gen. Or buying a well sorted CPO first gen. I do need to explore warranty options in the coming year, as the potential for repair costs scares me to my soul.

 

110v is kind of iffy, I agree. I did that for a while, but it basically means you get one trip with battery power per day, because it takes all night to charge the batteries. 220 means that if you go somewhere, come back, and plug in, you'll probably have another charge when if you got out again unless you go right back out immediately.

It's not just the voltage, it's the current. The car will only draw 10 amps on a 120 volt circuit, vs. 15 on a 240. It's 1.2 kw vs. 3.6 kW, 3x the power draw. Or more if you have a car with the 7.2 kW chargers, but I think that was 2016 only, and most cars won't have it.

I had the base 8 way seats because I super cheaped out on my order, and I had no difficulty with comfort on long trips. On the other hand, my father in law (who is significantly overweight) said the seats were "really uncomfortable" after 2 hours.

On the other hand, the 18 way seats aren't for everyone either. I recently ordered a 911 GTS (my finances have improved significantly since 2014), and one discussion my wife and I had was 14 way vs 18 way. We sat in both, and she found the 18 way seats much less comfortable because the botoms are deeper, and consequently narrower. Not really narrow, since my rear was fine with them, but she found the side bolsters uncomfortable.

While 911 seats aren't precisely the same as Panamera seats - would that they were, one thing I didn't like about the 8 way seats was that they were more upright than sports coupe seats - I think the same caveat probably applies.

 

Did you get the PSeH? How do you like it? The 2014/15 CPO pricing is fantastic, I like 2016 Cayenne SEH since it is AWD. But the PSEH pricing is so good I can't ignore.

Thank You

 

dougcayenne - Yes, I did make the purchase of a 2016 PSeH which was untitled with essentially no mileage. I was able to get basically a new car at a big discount and still got to take the tax rebate.

Here are my impressions after almost 4 months of driving:

Overall, I enjoy the car a great deal and look forward to driving it every time I get in. It's much more complex and interactive an experience than my prior ride (Infiniti FX35), and I am still figuring out some nuances.

The all-electric ride is smooth and acceptable for city driving and even short highway commutes; in fact, my commute is 13 miles each way with a medium speed charging outlet near my parking spot at work - so I run almost all electric to and from work which is the bulk of my routine driving. That yields high effective mileage; I have nearly 4000 miles now and am on my 5th tank of gas. I'm averaging 45-55 miles per gallon at each fill. Beyond mileage efficiency, though, the 95hp electric ending definitely struggles with acceleration beyond the first 25 mph or so and really struggles going up the steep hill outside my subdivision. If there is traffic approaching from downhill as I turn uphill, I have to switch into Sport mode or hybrid mode to accelerate fast enough to keep from slowing others down. After cresting the hill, I shift back to electric for the rest of my commute. Flooring it in electric recruits the ICE but not nearly as effectively or quickly as switching to another mode.

Hybrid mode defaults after exhausting the electric charge. It is okay but not very rewarding. It's really a heavy car and this mode just doesn't give enough oomph for me. I use it out of guilt rather than pleasure. Pickup is pretty good if floored.

Sport mode feels like how the car should be expected to perform. Pickup is excellent and flooring it recruits all 400+ hp. This has become my default driving mode when electric is exhausted or if I need more aggressive maneuvering due to traffic, etc. While not as efficient as Hybrid or Electric modes, mileage isn't bad in the right situation. I just drove 900 miles round trip at mostly freeway speeds and often able to use cruise control. Admittedly, this optimizes mileage, but I was able to average 31 mpg while always in Sport mode. This is pretty good for this large of a car and this degree of luxury. My Infiniti only got 16-18 mpg.

I recently added Sport Plus mode and am just beginning to explore its utility. My first judgement is that it isn't significantly different than Sport mode the way I drive. Perhaps a more aggressive style would magnify the differences.

Regarding build quality, this car is top notch. I prefer the numerous buttons to the touch screen style of the newer model. Trim and styling are exceptional. The PCM seems a bit archaic with clumsy and counterintuitive menus, but it actually does everything I want and need it to. I have a phone mount and don't use the nav system (which has an unwieldy interface); I use the satellite radio and stream from my phone via USB to maximize sound quality (better than bluetooth). The disc player is fine - the only recurring problem is frequent misreading of the duration of DVD Audio tracks. I strongly recommend the 360 degree overhead parking camera package over the standard reverse camera - this car is deceptively big and wide; the reverse camera clarity and distortion are surprisingly poor quality. The overhead and additional views of that package really help.

Regarding reliability, I have had no significant problems thus far. After so much electric use, condensation into the oil system resulted in an OVERFILL warning; at the advice of my service agent, I drove all-ICE for a few days and the light went off as the condensation was burned away. I have had what feels to be a loose driver's seat which shifts slightly and "clunks" into place at first acceleration but the service people found nothing wrong at inspection. It hasn't worsened thus far. At that inspection, they chose to bleed off some oil (despite the overfill light no longer being on). With my long-distance ICE drive soon thereafter, the UNDERFILL oil warning came on requiring them to add a quart of oil. Go figure.

Regarding room for improvement, a stronger electric motor with greater range would be nice but is not a deal breaker for me. A hybrid mode that integrates electric and ICE engines throughout the throttle range would be a better implementation and, I believe, is present in the new model. Is that and the new touch screen interface worth the $40,000 price difference? Not to me.

In summary, then, I really like this car and enjoy driving it every time. I think it's really good looking and performs well if driven the right way. As a hybrid, I get great mileage with some sacrifice in performance. But don't get hung up on getting the most mileage possible; if you baby this car, you will be dissatisfied with its performance due to its size and weight. Driven more aggressively, it really performs well. While not perfect, it's a steal at this price point - negotiate hard since the new model is now available. You should be able to get a great price.

 

THANK YOU GRATEFULMED for a very intuitive feedback, I really appreciate your reply and thoughtful note. I am looking at 2016 CPO Cay SHE or PAN SHE. We currently have 2014 Cay and 2016 PAN4. We like both our cars, good product.
My commuting distance is very much the same as yours.
Gas in the bay area California is $3.89. We will be poor to fill the tank every week, LOL …
So far I totally agreed with your assessment of your PAN SHe. My PAN4 Sport and SportPlus are not a big difference in performance even though I have PASM. I prefer Sport Mode than SportPlus.
The price of SHe is incredibly good, steep depreciation for 2 yrs old based on my initial scan of Porsche CPO. We will give our Cayenne to our daughter this summer. More likely, we will need an efficient truck SHe. The PAN and Cay are very much the same for SHe except Cay is AWD. BTW, I have the same feel of a loose driver's seat which shifts slightly and "clunks" into place at first acceleration on my 2016 PAN4. I have not reported to my SA yet. Next time I am in service I will tell them.

Recently I drove the Cay SHe Loaner, I really like it. I will continue to hunt for a good $ Porsche SHe. Tesla S and X are so expensive and I can’t drive a long distance from SF to LA or to Sierra Ski trip. I can get a leaf to drive around town, LOL … Or I wait next 2 years for Model 3 …

Thank again and happy you really enjoy your PAN SHe.