"I don't believe many Stage IV guys will follow..."

Chad we obviously agree to disagree on this. That's what makes a market. I feel there won't be as much to talk about around here if the mod developement ends. Given the level of enthusiast on this board in conjunction with the resources behind them, I am possative it will happen. Few are prepaired to sink the R&D $$ and be the Guinee Pig. Thanks to those of you who are. Several here are prepaired to purchase a proven package. Lowballers like me included!

Chad, thanks for being the #1 Trail Blazer. A lot of your findings have and will continue to break the trail in all of our future upgrade paths. So the moral of the story is..... keep the information flowing!!!

 

With all due respect Zippy, I don't think you really know what you're talking about. If you had a 700+ hp car, you would know that there are many reliability and even maintenance issues to be addressed, as the parts on the car simply wear faster.

Do you have any idea what Chad's new motor is like? It incorporates many GT3-R parts. A package like his including the bolt on parts would run you somewhere in the neighborhood of $70 grand or more if you include labor, which is almost the blue book price of most early model 996TT's.

If the Stage 4 guys were this nuts, they would have gone straight to Stage 5, or better yet, they would have gone to Protomotive and even further improved upon my system using Garrett GT30 turbos, Carillo rods, GT1 pistons, etc.

Or they would have gotten the Ruf Nardo engine. There is a reason Ruf charges over $60,000 for this upgrade alone.

I have news for you, my friend. Stage 4 is for people that want phenomenal performance on a budget. It is NOT for people who want to go to the extreme.

Frankly, IMO even Chad could do better with his motor if he felt inclined to do so. After talking to a very serious engine builder who has built motors for Porsche Motorsport, if you want to build a motor that will last an enduro with the kind of power Chad is talking about, it would cost you upwards of $80K.

I want to see which Stage 4 guys will have the ***** to spend $80K to build a proper motor! And this is not inclusive of the so-called "R&D" cost.

Yeah, I'll be anxiously awaiting to see what the Stage 4 guys come up with in 12-18 months!

Oh BTW, we'll see if most of these Stage 4GTR cars will be able to beat my little black GT2 in the next Shootout after I convince Loren and Cary to set up my suspension.

 

Hammann7 -> You're correct in saying that I don't have a clue what I'm talking about in the mechanical department, but I do understand the insatiable appetite of power pigs (like myself). At some point in the reassonabbly near future there will be a 'value' option for upgrading the internals. It will more than likely be a stage 6 package. Probably consisting of: Rods, crank, hot ZC turbos, intake, injectors. The basic things that will get you to the next level. I'm not talking level 12, just level 6, which will have to include strengthing of the internals. Again, this is just my simple, uneducated opinion.

Mike

 

Zippy, you are right.

However, I would NOT want to be buying one of these Stage 6 packages with the power I think they're going for.

You also have to realize that you will have to rebuild the engine way sooner than stock.

Also, if Stage 5 is $30K, Stage 6 will be more like $50-60K.

I think that is too much money, even for most crazy Turbo owners.

 

Tyson,
I am not so sure on that. All the turbo markets have been crazy. When I bought my first turbo I paid 40K for the car and that was a fix it upper. I spend nearly another 40K over a year rebuilding it then another 20K in mods over the next 6 months. By the time that was done I wasn't happy and got use to the power. The end result was the videos you have seen. That last punch of mods including suspension and brakes as well as a completely new prototype motor at the time was apx 110K!! I am not the only nut case like this. I have a customer with a C2T that makes 600HP and a 1000.00 a month car payment. That wasn't enough so 800RWHP is the target. A motor that is as new as they come. They are spending less for the cars, but the ratio is actually greater for them since they paid 30-50 for the car and sink 60K in the rest. We do it almost daily. As a owner for 18 years and 30 Porsches I fall into that category as well. Remember ImagineAuto was a hobby gone wild!! So now I do it daily for those like us that need MORE. Almost every hot rod motor I build cost more then they paid for the car. These guys can't stop. The other issue is I saw a 02 8K mile TT go for 58 locally yesterday. If that continues to happen the market will be full of hot rods, spend 60 on the car 60-70 on the mods and end up with a real nasty car.

 

Well, I guess if your basis in the car is really low, I can see your point.

I have not seen 996TT's dip below 80K out here. At 80K + 80K, you are at $160K. The demographic for an $80,000 and a $160,000 is slightly different. Especially because the $80K in mods have to be paid for in cash-- it can't be residualized, financed, etc. for the most part.

But even still, I think those extreme cases you mentioned as a percentage of Turbo owners are few and far between.

I can see people spending $10 or 20K. Much beyond that... look at the PES/EVO Stage 5. Shouldn't there be a line around the block for "only" $30K?

 

 

Chad. I am just looking into the issue of dropping the PSM because while it might work marginally on a stock tt at the track, I really doubt it will work well with a Stage 4GTR and slicks, so I agree with your statement. There are two ways two attack this, either through ECU control or by modifying the signals it is receiving. Have you thought of changing the inputs to "fool" the PSM system to do what you want? I know there are supposed to be a couple of much more open ECU systems coming out soon also. What are your thoughts?

 

True, the percentages are lower then the overall masses, but think about HOW MANY cars are out there. There are only a few of us even cracking the TT cases. I have a series of questions I can ask that weed out the less than truthful and so far the list is low. It is a much bigger market then you might think. In fact we are booked for a while and full. This is even after we increased the shop size nearly 60%. Yikes. Either way the prices are coming down and technology and choices are changing. It is a great time to be an owner and engine builder/Tuner.

 

Tim,
There are a few that I know have worked around the PSM, however there are so many more issues for the public and legal concerns. I think honestly in Chad's situation by the time his people pull the PSM code the car could have been switched to a M800 and GT3R ABS computer with far less effort and frustration. The code for the PSM is like a virus, it is in everything! The removal of the Motronic in general would elevate that. To trick the sensors would be difficult in a sense. They draw readings from so many different places and compare it would be difficult to do it. Just not sure if something like this would ever come to be realized unless it was a highly modified, sponsored track car.

 

Stephen,

We have already defeated the throttle body shut down at 1.3 bar. My thought was simply to remove the wheel sensors. In addition, going to give these guys brain a try next month. http://lenzmotorentechnikusa.com/LenzUSAHome.htm

 

The problem is it is also in the ABS function of the controls. The thresholds could be moved up. The 1.3 shutdown is not related to the function of PSM. It is related to self management control which will close when the car is not happy. Boost is only one of many controls that can and will close the throttle body. To remove that code would shift thousands of other codes.

 

Stephen,

I believe you need to think out of the box on this one. If you removed the wheel sensors, why wouldn't a GT2 ECU work? Not sure you would even have to remove the sensors. Now you don't have to deal with your "virus." Do you see any reason why this would not work?

 

If you remove the wheel sensors how will the ABS be controlled? It is all tied in. You will still throw codes left and right. You might be able to reprogram a GTII ECU if the psm channel doesn't read. I don't know on that one.

 

I do not believe the wheel sensors that I am refering to on the trailing arms have anything to do with the ABS. The GT2 has ABS brakes. I am assuming the same system applies to the turbo brakes. Then again, I don't have turbo brakes.

Neither do I for sure.......yet. Hmmmmm.......here we go prototyping again.