I don't find it surprising at all but some people blinded by the badge do.

 

They probably saw Porsche doing it and thought they would have a go at getting away with it as well. They forgot that the car is called a Nissan tho....and looks like one, if not one with it's own particular recognition...

You make a lot of very valid points here HC. Too many infact.

I think the stigma that is attached to the durability of a Nissan Vs Porsche isn't going to go away any time soon either. And agree on the thrill quickly passing on the GTR. You can only do so many WOT take offs and then you get back to normal driving and then realise there isn't a hell of a lot going on sensation or feel wise. It just becomes another japanese car that only delivers a buz if you're up it 100%. In fact in regular driving conditions you are more comfortable in a Camry.

Also agree Porsche does do nothing to preserve the value of the outgoing models....mind you i suppose what can they do? Tell buyers the car is still worth such and such

May have worked 10 years ago.....but its not working anymore The market has changed along with the mindset of the buyer...

Used cars are everywhere so it inevitably becomes a buyers market.

 

Yawn. The truth hurts huh BW...oh well...

 

I could have gone further but i thought why bother...

Mind you I've never said i wouldn't reply to your posts. That was you that said that...plus i quite enjoy watching you wriggle around....it's funny

But i do have to be careful with what i say to you BW. You're so so touchy. As i said the truth hurts you pretty bad it would appear....

 

I was focused solely on the exterior design cues of the 911 (997, really) when I said the Panamera styling looked a bit like a 911. I think the Panamera is a decent looking car, but I think where it looks a bit goofy is where stretched 911:ism does not quite work.

Speed, do you not see the 911 cues in the Cayenne either? To me, Cayenne.1 looked more than a little like a blown up 996.

Corporate design/brand recognition...

 

Aha. OK. I agree Porsche has sought to somehow build the look of the 911 into its other vehicles for the sake of strengthening brand identity via the 911's performance credentials.....even though it has (IMHO) ultimately impeded the design of those cars being able to turn out in a more positive way in a design sense.

I personally would have hoped Porsche would have been able to come up with better ways of creating brand identity without struggling to build the 911's shape into these 2 vehicles. It hasn't done any of those car any favours IMHO (Panamera and Cayenne). Let's face it the Panamera certainly does not have a very flattering sillohette from the side, and the rear end is questionable as well. Then there is the Cayenne.... Neither of these two cars have received accolades as style masters in design....in fact to the contrary. But one thing remains clear.

The 911 however is unmistakable and to hear certain (un named members) try to mix it up the other way that the 911 was shaped from Panamera or Cayenne is plain nonsense. That would never fly with anyone who was living in the real world.

 

The 2013 GTR really is more car than the 09 car . It's also not 30K "44 percent") unless one opts for a "black edition" and wants the fancy seats or the cool wheels (which some thug in an Altima might eyeball while sitting in service at Nissan) .

The premium GTR is 96K .. and that car is right in line with a base 991 (non S) and maybe we ought to compare those two .

I don't mind price hikes when the car stands out as the winner .
Can you imagine the consumer who plunks down 350K on a 458 italia to see the rear end of a GTR ? Throw in other supercars and then the scope of the significance of the Nissan becomes even more dramatic .

Nissan can back it up with the numbers and even can back it up with the daily driving capability .
BUT ..... They can NOT back it up with warranty ( I agree with you on this) and in terms of reliability its too soon to say on both (the 13 GTR is new and so is the 991 ) . Yet this raises a point .. if a GTR is really that cheap how many repairs will it take to equal the price of a 991 Turbo S ?
Hence my conclusion in my first post .. buy neither and I (the consumer) wins .

You asked about the luxury as well in the GTR . It's clear that if one wanted the more luxurious of the two then the 991 is the winner. But if one wants luxury why not just buy a Panamera ?
Better yet .. if one really wanted luxury .. why not scrap performance altogether and buy a luxury car (Rolls Royce , Bentley , MB ..etc) . At least in the luxury segment the half priced contender doesn't get the same level of recognition as the GTR has gotten in this performance segment .

 

Here are three photos . The Interior of a 993 . the interior of a Panamera , and the interior of the 991 . Nuff said !!!

 

Weak area Nissan -Durability
Weak area Porsche - Performance (less than Nissan)
Weak area Nissan -- Comfort
Weak area Porsche -- Price

So . durability and comfort Vs performance and price . Keep in mind that I'd like to view both cars as "peformance" cars .

If durability . peformance , comfort, and price were fused into one car it's hard to say that either of these cars would be the best choice . The price of a 991S (130K nicely optioned) can almost come close to a GTR premium plus a BMW.

If the GTR is somewhat of a weekend toy then "normal driving" can be done with the second car .

 

No argument from me on the above Larry but i think what we are really looking at here is the fact Panamera was the last entirely new vehicle produced prior to 991, so it stands to reason the interior design was bound to make its way in various forms into 991 and then throughout the entire Porsche product range.

If the 991 had been made prior to Panamera i doubt we'd be having this discussion. This is evidenced by the fact that prior to Panamera being made 911's interiors were woven through the rest of the Porsche fleet. And, instead we would be saying how Panamera has wound up wearing 991's interior! Same will be the case when new Boxster and Cayman is released shortly. They too will be sharing/wearing similar/same interiors. i.e.; that damn boxer and cayman looks like a panamera

Larry the real argument here should be whether the new interior design is good or bad. My take is it's excellent especially given the quality of the upgraded interior plastics that were being constantly criticised as being out of character for expensive marques such as 911. Now, a full leather package is not essential in a 911 whereas before you needed the full leather to allow the car to properly stand as being worthy of its high price tag.

This is where the Aston Martin was being constantly praised for its luxuriant high quality interior....along with R8.

Seems now Porsche is being damned for fixing it .

 

Agree. But herein lies the dilemma. Ie; I'm not prepared to pay for the porsche because it doesn't go as hard as the nissan but then I'm not convinced nor prepared to buy the nissan either for the other reasons....eg comfort, awkward styling, warranty, brand image/lack thereof etc.

Oh well. Look at the up side. Just as well we both own well preserved 997turbos larry. So....the final resolution of this "dilemma" can wait a while longer yet....well for me anyway.

 

It's just different strokes for different folks . Look at the 993 interior and see how basic it is . That 1960's type dash lasted all the way into the late 1990's and that's the original root of the car (basic and simple) .

And why isn't "full leather " standard in a car that can cost 125K ? It was in the Turbo (cost 100K in 96 , 122K in 07) . Why not demad that too !!! Along with comparable pricing with a competor that happens to actually win .

The Panamera interior is great .. for a Panamera !!!!
It's a sport luxury car .

The Aston is a different type of car altogether . It's not a 911.
Something is lost in this car. Something more than just losing to a GTR .

To clone this 'luxury" Panamera interior and insert it into a 911 looks more like ill fitted cost cutting . One would never know by looking at the MSRP though.

 

Yeh I'm hearing you on the minimalist earlier interior as being in theme with the car but it appears the way of the future for Porsche has been to steadily build a better interior into the car....along with other performance advancements.

It started in 996, stepped up further in 997....actually 997 interior was a real step forward in the right direction if you ask me. Now 991 has wound up going further upmarket off the back of developments made during Panamera's inception/production. They obviously had goals and were aware of market criticism, particularly over the non full leather versions. All this whilst Aston and, particularly when R8 had come in and stole the limelight in that area....amongst other areas as well for that matter. They were aware of GTR's performance but didn't appear to threatened over nissans exterior and interior design and finish issues. So we all know from past and previous Porsche iterations they enjoy using the fish and the loaves trick when they make a new car. They are renown for that. Just look at Boxster and Cayman interiors, doors and other panels/parts they can cut costs and share.

Agree totally on the MSRP. They really need to give it a re$t and wind it back.....and by not just a few grand either. Im talking a 330K 991 C2S should become a 250K max car (out here). Your way its price needs to also come back respectively. They are simply way out of touch with not only the market sentiment but also reality. I can see these cars sitting and 6 months out big discounts. Shame is with custom orders rather than rewarding folks for being brave and committing to a deal by giving a discount they abuse that and make the customer pay full whack. Not a great feeling to buy one of these cars to only find next door has bought the same car for 40k less and with no wait.

Oh and by the way i totally agree all 911's should be standard with full leather at the price. Its outrageous to even offer partial in a car like this.

 

Bingo !!!

This is the first time since I bought a 993 (1995) that I not only am "waiting" but that I don't even mind waiting . Like you said .. we both have the Gt1 Turbo cars .

I didn't buy a GTR either ... but waiting means learning more about both of these cars .

If it ends up where i buy nothing .. well .. savings is never a bad thing but i would rather buy no car than buy a car that I have doubts on .

 

Comon, the GTR was in the 60's when it debuted, and now its almost 100k, so it only went up 27 k or 40%. Still a huge price hike no matter how you slice it. And the 2013 is not 40% more car, barely more car at all. I'm shocked that you justify from Nissan yet bash it from Porsche. Also shocked that you make this compelling argument for the Nissan and don't even want one.

Luxury and performance is the new trend and can be had together. You didn't buy that 997 Turbo because it was a hardcore drivers car did you? Let's keep it real. Porsche is still the best of both worlds in that area even factoring in the price.

The GTR like i said is not mature enough to make 911 sales numbers. That is not going to change.