Originally Posted by yrralis1

It's been awhile . Interesting thread !!!

I have a few comments . In 2009 I felt that the GTR came to the plate with some growing pains but the 2013 car sure sounds like it's the real deal . It can run with supercar characteristics at value pricing . Nice!!!

In the past when Porsche launched a new redesign I could not wait to run out and drive it . Once driven I often bought the new 911 . That is not the case today . I have yet to drive the 991 and don't even have an interest . I have seen the car , sat in the car , was offered a test drive .. and rejected it for the time being . I have not sold either of my 997 cars . In fact I somewhat wonder what's next and i am very glad that i kept them and still have low miles on both.

It does not matter to me that the 991 is faster than the 997 . The 991 looks big , bloated .. reminds me of a larger Audi crossed with a Panamera with a few remnants of the Porsche thrown in almost as an afterthought . No wonder they had to use capital letters to badge it .

So Nissan stepped up .. and Porsche went luxury. My sentiment .. dissappointed .

I have not driven the new GTR and I would like to . BUT ... I have doubts about the car too.

1) Why did the 09 cars face so much lack of warranty support ?
2) Why did Mizuno answer the challenging interview questions in Japanese ? Why did he say LC was some type option used for snow ?
3) Why the need for a waiver when the customer is the one buying the car ?
4) What of the problem recalls in Europe in 2010 .
5) Are the cars in the tests the same as the one I woild hope to buy ?
6) What is it like to sit in service and feel out of place with a 100+K car sitting next to a 5 year old 10K car (other Nissan models with years of age).
7) Will I be satisfied with the overall long term expererience of owning a GTR ?
8) and why a circlular plastic A/C vent in a 100K car ?

The problem -
Porsche 911 cars were originally known as the most basic form of driver interraction . They thrived on simplicity . In fact the old 1960's dash, the 5 dials, the offset pedals lasted all the way until the 993 ended . It's no doubt that Nissan excelled in the direction of gadgetry . In my opinion Porsche is out of its domain .

Another problem --
PRICE .. A 997 Turbo with a few options cost 130K in 07 and to hike the 991S price into that sphere (former Turbo launch pricing) and not compete with the GTR in every aspect is (in my opinion) inexcusable . A premium edition GTR is under 100K !!!!!!!! That is a huge price gap !!!

Problem -- For years it looked like Nissan was chasing Porsche but it almosts seems like a reversal of sorts . Nissan ups the GTR and it does get noticed .

Conclusion .. .
125K for a nice spec new 991S Vs 108K GTR Black Edition ?
I am not buying either .. yet

Originally Posted by heavychevy

I feel the exact opposite, the 991 is what the 997 should have been, a true evolution of the platform. The 997 failed in that aspect. It was more of a 996.5. It was bigger, way heavier and only faster because it had more HP and better tires. Most of the change was the interior and lights. The GT3 came to the US without a sunroof delete option initially, and weighed 3200 plus lbs. Race teams passed on the 997 rsr because it tool them a year to.make them faster than the outgoing 996 rsr. And the 996 was far more dominant in racing than the 997 has been.

Even in street cars the 997 fell behind the times where the 996 was highly respected, no one really cared about seeing a 997 GT3 on track. The 997.1 rs was a joke, just bright colors and no faster than the regularGT3. Some of that was recovered with the .2 models but still not to the same level.

The 991 is a true evolution, from getting back to the light weight roots, and the car is bigger because it has to be. The small wheelbases on the previous generation cannot keep up with the Ferraris/Corvettes and rule princess bmws. The 911 is built on racing and.if it does not win, people want to scrap it. To make the car look decent it needed to be bigger.

Even the head guy from Porsche said the 997 was a fill in the blank (time) car until the 991 development was complete and it shows.

Originally Posted by AG991

... The latest edition of EVO praised the GTR and the R8 above the 991s saying that the electronic steering and PDCC placed a layer of gauze between car and driver. In the January issue of CAR, another British car magazine, they gave the nod to the 991 because of its driver feel and handling even over the R8 and GTR. If those paid to advise us can't decide, how are we mere mortals to find enlightenment?
...

Originally Posted by jaspergtr

This is exactly what I was referring to earlier (to Speed21). It happens.

But to answer your question - us mortals must take these reviews with a grain of salt, recognize bias, and consider our own preferences (based on experiences, or perhaps confide in another individual who shares your perspective).

Originally Posted by jaspergtr

This is exactly what I was referring to earlier (to Speed21). It happens.

But to answer your question - us mortals must take these reviews with a grain of salt, recognize bias, and consider our own preferences (based on experiences, or perhaps confide in another individual who shares your perspective).

Originally Posted by AG991

That sound about right! I love my 991, so far, subject to some observations I put in another string in answer to a question from Sid (buffinting from the sunroof, etc.). I totally understand keeping and loving a 997 or earlier Porsche 911 and/or a GTR. Pundits notwithstanding, I don't think that there is a bad choice to be made - I would be angry with anyone telling me that I made the wrong choice, for me, and delighted to acknowledge the validity of differences in opinion - in car language, your milage may vary!

Keep it coming thought, it is very entertaining and informative.
Cheers!

Originally Posted by AG991

That sound about right! I love my 991, so far, subject to some observations I put in another string in answer to a question from Sid (buffinting from the sunroof, etc.). I totally understand keeping and loving a 997 or earlier Porsche 911 and/or a GTR. Pundits notwithstanding, I don't think that there is a bad choice to be made - I would be angry with anyone telling me that I made the wrong choice, for me, and delighted to acknowledge the validity of differences in opinion - in car language, your milage may vary!

Keep it coming thought, it is very entertaining and informative.
Cheers!

Originally Posted by AG991

That sound about right! I love my 991, so far, subject to some observations I put in another string in answer to a question from Sid (buffinting from the sunroof, etc.). I totally understand keeping and loving a 997 or earlier Porsche 911 and/or a GTR. Pundits notwithstanding, I don't think that there is a bad choice to be made - I would be angry with anyone telling me that I made the wrong choice, for me, and delighted to acknowledge the validity of differences in opinion - in car language, your milage may vary!

Keep it coming thought, it is very entertaining and informative.
Cheers!

Originally Posted by heavychevy

Even in street cars the 997 fell behind the times where the 996 was highly respected, no one really cared about seeing a 997 GT3 on track. The 997.1 rs was a joke, just bright colors and no faster than the regularGT3. Some of that was recovered with the .2 models but still not to the same level.

The 991 is a true evolution, from getting back to the light weight roots, and the car is bigger because it has to be. The small wheelbases on the previous generation cannot keep up with the Ferraris/Corvettes and rule princess bmws. The 911 is built on racing and.if it does not win, people want to scrap it. To make the car look decent it needed to be bigger.

Even the head guy from Porsche said the 997 was a fill in the blank (time) car until the 991 development was complete and it shows.

Originally Posted by muifast

In just about every decade I can remember, Porsche would be in financial trouble in one form or another by relying on 911 sales alone.

In the late 70 to early 80's, albeit short lived, it was the 924/944/928 that saved the brand, and in the late 90's, it was the Boxster, then Cayenne in the 2000's, etc... Porsche always had a need to broaden their appeal and reach than to just core enthusiats. Com'on FLAME AWAY, I got my suit and thick skin...

They ran out of money developing the 996 knowing full well that they had better up their luxury game before the world leaves them behind. And Cayenne was like a second coming of the Boxster (in terms of cash) before 996.2 or 997 can be brought to the market.

Of course, we all know the story of the derivative hedging that almost had the little minnow (Porsche) swallowing the big whale (VW). Ahhh, how the world would have been different if the plan was successful...

And I do care about the GT3, because its one of my favorite rides.

Originally Posted by Manifold

IMO, Porsche has managed to position themselves as a 'value-priced' performance/luxury/prestige brand. They don't have much competition in that niche, hence their high profit margins.

To illustrate, in this thread we've discussed the GT-R, but I don't see it stealing many sales from Porsche. The R8 is nice, but no back seat, pricey, and too flashy for many people. Aston, Jaguar, and Maserati have more of a luxury/GT image, and not performance-focused enough for many Porsche fans. What else is there?

Originally Posted by heavychevy

I feel the exact opposite, the 991 is what the 997 should have been, a true evolution of the platform. The 997 failed in that aspect. It was more of a 996.5. It was bigger, way heavier and only faster because it had more HP and better tires. Most of the change was the interior and lights.

Even in street cars the 997 fell behind the times where the 996 was highly respected, no one really cared about seeing a 997 GT3 on track. The 997.1 rs was a joke, just bright colors and no faster than the regularGT3. Some of that was recovered with the .2 models but still not to the same level.

The 991 is a true evolution, from getting back to the light weight roots, and the car is bigger because it has to be. The small wheelbases on the previous generation cannot keep up with the Ferraris/Corvettes and rule princess bmws. The 911 is built on racing and.if it does not win, people want to scrap it. To make the car look decent it needed to be bigger.

Originally Posted by btapp

$125K is value priced? I think that there is a lot of room for other manufacturers to undercut Porsche if they don't stay sharp. Check out the new Viper, not exact refined but anyone that has ever owned a Viper cannot deny the potency on a track.

Originally Posted by muifast

In just about every decade I can remember, Porsche would be in financial trouble in one form or another by relying on 911 sales alone.

In the late 70 to early 80's, albeit short lived, it was the 924/944/928 that saved the brand, and in the late 90's, it was the Boxster, then Cayenne in the 2000's, etc... Porsche always had a need to broaden their appeal and reach than to just core enthusiats. Com'on FLAME AWAY, I got my suit and thick skin...

They ran out of money developing the 996 knowing full well that they had better up their luxury game before the world leaves them behind. And Cayenne was like a second coming of the Boxster (in terms of cash) before 996.2 or 997 can be brought to the market.

Of course, we all know the story of the derivative hedging that almost had the little minnow (Porsche) swallowing the big whale (VW). Ahhh, how the world would have been different if the plan was successful...

And I do care about the GT3, because its one of my favorite rides.

Originally Posted by crazycarlitos

ur post was very interesting.. and i agreed with u initially.

however, after re-reading it, i find myself confused (yeah, what's new )

u stated that 997 is not a true part of 911 evolution because
"It was bigger, way heavier and only faster because it had more HP and better tires. Most of the change was the interior and lights."

yet, isn't that what Porsche did with 991 ?

i do agree that in order for 911 to be relevant in this highly competitive market, Porsche had to make the car more powerful and lightweight as well as using electronic aids such as PTV.

After all, who were 996 & 997 up against ? corvette ? viper ? certainly not the 350z.. and if we didn't have enough HP, we always argued that 911 handled better..lol

now, Porsche has to line up against cars like ZR1, GTR, R8, Lotus line, NSX, the new viper, even the aston martin, Maserati and Jag, etc etc.. and the list is getting longer every year.

thanks to advancement in engineering and manufacturing process, all the cars are lightweight & very powerful and somewhat affordable.

because of that, the evolution leap from 997 to 991 has to be greater..

Lastly, where do u see 996 racing instead of 997.2 ?

Originally Posted by Manifold

IMO, Porsche has managed to position themselves as a 'value-priced' performance/luxury/prestige brand. They don't have much competition in that niche, hence their high profit margins.

To illustrate, in this thread we've discussed the GT-R, but I don't see it stealing many sales from Porsche. The R8 is nice, but no back seat, pricey, and too flashy for many people. Aston, Jaguar, and Maserati have more of a luxury/GT image, and not performance-focused enough for many Porsche fans. What else is there?