If anyone believes they will have a happy experience while they are pushing the envelope .......... they are not in touch with reality.

I can remember when 500 rwhp was a dream with these cars. As milestones were passed, new ones surfaced. With each new bar new knowledge was gained and the old bars became safe ...... so to say.

Your welcome .........

 

Trust me Chad I know the game - I have already had my taste of reality

 

Dr _jitsu,

Although not many posts, guy goes back a very long way. Great person and very knowledgeable.

 

CJV - Thanks for the compliment.

Dr_Jitsu - thanks for directing me to that section, I had not seen that before.

Guy

 

Guy,

I can still remember your pic you posted with that intercooler.

 

I was told that both cars made that power at 1.9 BAR, and that Todd told the owners beforehand that he would not warranty their motors at that level of boost (which is completely understandable).

 

Mark,

I fully realize that you've had some unexpected problems with your car. I also realize that it's been a very long road for you, and I truly respect the time and money that you've invested over the years. But some of the problems with your car were caused your own doing by not listening to your tuner and following his instructions to the letter.

When you take your car to different shops out of frustration, you can not hold Todd responsible for further issues. When you have someone launch your car at a dragstrip over and over again at 7k rpm on sticky MT drag radials, and things break...you can not hold Todd responsible for the related problems. Your car has gotten the crap beaten out of it during your quest for 9's. Period.

Enough said on that subject.

As far as you driving your car, no one’s stopping you from doing so. You could at any time, politely tell Bobby that you’d prefer to be the one to run her down the dragstrip or bust out the 60-130 times yourself, instead of always watching from the sidelines of the track or riding shotgun in the passenger seat. It's your car!

I just find it hypocritical that you sit and throw stones from the top of some internet pedestal that someone else created for you. You post things like the below statement, but apparently in your case it does take more than money. It also takes a ringer driver.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markski

the car is light, regeared, and a 4.0L... whats the big deal?

Anyway, you can tell me to pound sand if you’d like…but I think you should give credit where it's due and show some humility. Because IMO, until you run a 9 second 1/4 mile, or run a record-setting 60-130 time on your own, I really don't think you have the right to talk trash to those that have.

 

Scott,

I'm am not promoting or detracting from anyone here. You make some good points and in my opinion some biased ones.

Like Mark, yourself and some others, I believe I can say I have been there and done that as much as most others.

I have to question, when assembling these type of cars, if there is really such a animal as "unexpected problems." I know there is frustrations, however the height of these frustrations are dictated by your acceptance in advance that problems are inevitable when you venture into the unknown.

Speaking of the unknown, we must accept this applies to all the tuners out there. Yes, there is a pecking order based on knowledge and experience, however, I can assure everyone, when it comes to pushing the envelope, the best you can do is go with one of the top ones and be prepared for issues. Even the best are experimenting on your dime at this level.

In addition, if you use these cars at anywhere near ten tens, you have to know they will break on an ongoing basis. Even if you baby it, the probability of a much shorter car life is a reality.

As for the "taking it to different shops" comment. I have found that you really can't count the top tuner/builders on one hand. However, the top five do not all agree as to the best route to go. No doubt Protomotive is one of those five, I have used them along with a few others on my project. It is important, that you have anyone building your motor, explain what they intend to do to you, understand what they intend to do, ask questions and get a second opinion before you buy into and start the project.

It is also a given, when you push the envelope, time is a necessity. It simply does not go fast.

Addressing the driving of the car, I believe Mark is being held up to your own personal standards. Ones that I am sure you realize are not his. Example, some people would not consider your times to be yours if you didn't build your own motor or set the car up yourself (old hot rodder's). In your case you have the drive it yourself test. I am not saying your values are wrong ..... just different. When a manufacturer wins .......... well the team wins.

It takes a team effort to win at anything ........... If we truly realize this, we will understand what humility really is. Understanding it is a team effort along with giving credit to the team. Many times people use the word "I" when the word "we" would have been a better choice. I can't help but believe this is what you are really saying when addressing Mark.

As for the comments posted regarding "the car is light, regeared, and a 4.0L ... and It only takes money nothing else... lots of it... " all we have to do is look at the above to realize it is far more complicated and time consuming than these statements lead anyone to believe.

 

Scott,
With all due respect, I really think you are misinformed... big time.
I am not going to argue - You seem to know more about my car then I.
But If you want to know the truth I can call you. So til then please stop repeating things about my car publically as I do not appreciate 2nd hand information being passed around online.
I am not ashamed nor did ever hide the facts.... and if it was not for Bobby I would still have a unhealthy car. All the datas were not done to BEAT your time and boast but rather to see if it is getting closer to being 100%. And as you know very well, I do not live anywhere close to Bobby nor Todd... they do... so the car kept bouncing back and forth between them for 3 years ... and that is where the datas came from... and since you are fixated on one thing and only one thing omitting the truth... I will add Bobby's name to my SIG. for your viewing pleasure...
Heck, you called Bobby many times asking for advice ... call him and find out firsthand. And if it matters so much to you.... lets go 3 way that way there will be no he said she said?
mark

 

Gee,guys--this really bothers me that people I really respect for their giving on this( & other) forums choose to air in public. From my perspective 2 great contributors -both in public & privately that have really made this particular forum and behaved with dignity and decorum that is not widespread . Another great giver and contributor in CJV has really covered the issues that relate to Scott's comments and CJV situation has a particular relevence that I would point out.
The path to more powerfull and quicker cars is complicated and non-specific. CJV has made a huge contribution to knowledge and development-- he has paid( & paid& paid) to learn and allow many in the industry to enhance and develop knowledge of these engines. Others have been able to capitalise on this development cost and hit CJV original goals while CJV has continued to raise the bar of his aspirations and so on and so on. Markski benefitted in a direct line and then Scott also as simpler and cheaper ways were proven viable to attain targets.We are all huge beneficiery's of all this.
This is all the fact of evolution and no one has a proprietory right to that evolution standing still while they get what may well be the just reward for the efforts( and expenditure) --that is the competative reality of our world and it is not likely to change.
One last comment-- it is difficult to impossible to do everything in relation to high performance cars. Apart from my everyday driver/s I also race cars and own cars that others race. The logistics behind this prevent me always being in the drivers seat and while it is not the same as driving yourself it is certainly very satisfying to see your efforts come together and the car perform .up to expectations.

 

Spot on Red 9. Both Mark's and Scott's builds raised the bar of what is considered safe obtainable power from Porsche turbo boxer motor. I look back at all the problems we encountered with the cams and their related ecu's. If it wasn't for the collective help of people like Loren Begg's of 911 Design, Todd Knighten of Protomotive and Neil Harvey of Performance Developments we would have hit a dead end. Of special note is Loren Beggs, I have never bought a thing from him, but by knowing Cary Elsinlohr, I was able to talk with Loren and I could not believe what he shared. Loren really opened the door on the 996tt cam technology as we know it today. These people shared information with us that allowed not only ourselves, but themselves to make the sum of the parts greater than the whole. Please don't misunderstand me, they are not the only ones in the industry who we have shared information with us on different problems. There are unsung others.

Yes, others have beat us to our goals and actually we like that. Most people do not have any idea how expensive it is to be the first one there? Yes, we are more than happy to share information and save money.

As stated earlier, I can remember when 500 rwhp was the Holy Grail. Didn't Porsche win Leman's in 1998 with a GT1 producing 550 or 600 hp? Today 600 hp is everyday street drivable. Heck, the monster Can Am cars produced 1300-1500 hp. Our 996's are knocking on the door. These gains didn't come from Porsche, it came from Porsche 996tt owners, tuners and builders.

I really wonder if we will ever see the power gains end? If anyone believes that anyone will build an end all do all 996tt ......... think again. We all really need to be happy that we had a small part in the overall development of this special motor.

I also must confess I did not always feel as I do now. I understand where some of the above feelings come from. I have learned a lot from the likes of people like joetwint, he and a few others from time to time have helped keep my head out of the clouds and my feet firmly planted on terra firma.

 

I made 1000 RWHP at 26 pounds of boost (medium boost), temp was 71 degrees I think
Robert
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having probs with attachments, sorry

 

An interesting thread to say the least . . . and illuminating as well. Here is what I have gleaned:

1. Mark's car has experienced a panoply of problems that, for the most part, were never discussed openly on 6Speed, and his car has not ran correctly for the past three years. Thats a long time. During that three year span, Mark has only driven his car a few times. It appears that Mark has, to some degree, moved away from Protomotive, and Bobby is now tuning his car. Mark will not disclose details regarding his current set-up or performance numbers. There is speculation behind the scenes that Mark and Bobby are planning to open up a new tuning shop shortly and Mark's car, in its current configuration, will be their promotional vehicle (this is only speculation).

2. Rob refuses to expose his car to objective performance testing; presumably for fear that it will not perform as hoped or expected (perhaps he already has numbers, but refuses to post them because they were not as stout as hoped). Instead, he challenges cars in Europe to races (e.g., the 9ff car) because he knows that 9ff will not bring the car stateside (if 9ff actually accepted his challenge, Rob would undoubtedly be stricken with Bubonic Plague the day before and stay home). Likewise, when asked to post his 1000 RWHP dyno graph, Rob directs people to contact Protomotoive and get it from Knighton (BTW, my Smart Car recently dynoed 2378 RWHP at Fung's Dyno Shop in Outer Mongolia -- if you don't believe me, go ahead and call Fung and get the graph from him). I think Rob may have tried to reverse course and post his dyno graph yesterday, but to no avail (kudos to Rob if he finally does so).

3. It is unclear what boost levels were used to generate certain of the dyno numbers discussed above. Given the considerable divergence in numbers for similarly set-up cars, I suspect there is a variance in the boost levels, but I obviously do not know for sure.

4. The current over-under for the completion of Chad's car is June 14, 2013. Place your bets.

Craig