TiAL Alpha 30r’s – Stock motor race gas results!
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Scott is correct, there is no need to build these motors on street car. And for anyone who thinks a built motor gives you piece of mind hasn't been in this scene very long. I will bet a stock 700hp motor outlasts a built 900hp motor 9 out of 10 times....
Jamie, Was this in a 996 or a 997? at what boost? I just want to know for my own reference not scrutinizing at all..
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Switzer did 4's on a stock motor over a year ago. Markski, no offense, but DK has more dynos and WOT runs on his stock motor at 1.7 bar than days you've been in the tuning business.
Scott is correct, there is no need to build these motors on street car. And for anyone who thinks a built motor gives you piece of mind hasn't been in this scene very long. I will bet a stock 700hp motor outlasts a built 900hp motor 9 out of 10 times....
Scott is correct, there is no need to build these motors on street car. And for anyone who thinks a built motor gives you piece of mind hasn't been in this scene very long. I will bet a stock 700hp motor outlasts a built 900hp motor 9 out of 10 times....
interesting observation and you may be right, however, the curve above is not 700 bhp, it is well over 700 awhp, which is closer to 900 bhp. So in effect this stock motor is running at what you are saying a built motor would not last at.
Also we are talking a tune on race fuel AND Water/Meth. Sounds like I am talking about a top fuel dragster.
still no boost/afr curve for the above power curve?
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Switzer uses a standalone which allows for better tuning resolution and thus safety at these extreme performance levels.
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Hey guys, this is my car....thanks for all the comments and discussion. There has been a lot of talk about the limits of a stock block and I'm glad these results can contribute to the community.
Couple things I want to point out b/c I see a few people have asked....the car is running stock ICs and intake piping. Down the road this is something I'll likely upgrade but for the time being I have decided not to.
I drive the car 99% of the time on pump gas and therefore ~600awhp is the cars "normal" power level. When I track the car (4-6 events a year) I usually run a mix of pump/race fuel and the pump gas file.
I can't tell if you're just making a joke or if you're half serious with thsi comment... With race fuel the Water/Meth (in my case 50/50 mix) is used for its cooling properties, not for octane boost. Since I'm running stock ICs the WI keeps IAT temps low and helps eliminate heat soak.
Couple things I want to point out b/c I see a few people have asked....the car is running stock ICs and intake piping. Down the road this is something I'll likely upgrade but for the time being I have decided not to.
I drive the car 99% of the time on pump gas and therefore ~600awhp is the cars "normal" power level. When I track the car (4-6 events a year) I usually run a mix of pump/race fuel and the pump gas file.
I can't tell if you're just making a joke or if you're half serious with thsi comment... With race fuel the Water/Meth (in my case 50/50 mix) is used for its cooling properties, not for octane boost. Since I'm running stock ICs the WI keeps IAT temps low and helps eliminate heat soak.
Wait a sec... a built motor is still octane limited like a stock motor on ignition timing unless you are compromising ignition timing on a stock motor to lower torque for fear of breaking something. I speak mainly of pump gas. Optimal timing is just that for any specific octane - more isn't helpful, once you pass peak cylinder pressure you lose power and then quickly get into detonation. A built motor can safely run more boost yes but that's not going to add timing either. Can you better explain this statement, it makes no sense to me. Are you also lowering mechanical compression when you do a build? FWIW, yeah I've tuned a few cars and understand cylinder pressure\timing\BSFC etc. This statement just confuses me is all so I'm seeking clarification...
As to this motor specifically, since it seemed to choke, could we get details on intercoolers and intake piping at least? Stock intake piping would explain much! 83lb injectors at 5bar should be close to 100lb injectors yes? 700WHP should have been doable IMO, this too confuses me! A/F? Were the injectors flowed? System voltage good? Full fuel pressure? Seems off for some reason. Seeking info guys, not trying to throw rocks...
P.S. Why in the world "build" a motor and not do any headwork? Cams at least? If you've got it that far down kripes do something to help it breathe!
P.P.S. I too am happy to see more power being made on stock blocks. I came from the Supra community and 700HP at the wheels was about where the stock cams seemed to be a restriction and a cam swap would safely get you 100more HP. No one worried about the shortblock much until you began hitting 900RWHP and then it was mostly the main caps as I understood it. This was on race gas. That was NOT always the case in that community! We got there slowly. So, I was pretty shocked to hear people in this community, on bigger 3.6l motors, fretting at the 600WHP mark. What is it about these motors that is so fragile exactly? Why exactly does anyone think 700WHP is hurting the motor and what are you sweating? Poor bearings? Rods? Pistons? These motors are a good bit bigger than the Supra, 600HP on good PUMP gas and decent turbos should NOT be scary if the motors have good rods\pistons. I am very happy to see folks like Titan, BoostLogic, and Justinn (others too) willing to push the stock motors more! Now, someone let me into the ECU please.... Okay one last thing after reading all this, run it rich and be safe, lean is not THAT much more power. Timing is where you find power - octane is your friend, detonation is most certainly NOT.
As to this motor specifically, since it seemed to choke, could we get details on intercoolers and intake piping at least? Stock intake piping would explain much! 83lb injectors at 5bar should be close to 100lb injectors yes? 700WHP should have been doable IMO, this too confuses me! A/F? Were the injectors flowed? System voltage good? Full fuel pressure? Seems off for some reason. Seeking info guys, not trying to throw rocks...
P.S. Why in the world "build" a motor and not do any headwork? Cams at least? If you've got it that far down kripes do something to help it breathe!
P.P.S. I too am happy to see more power being made on stock blocks. I came from the Supra community and 700HP at the wheels was about where the stock cams seemed to be a restriction and a cam swap would safely get you 100more HP. No one worried about the shortblock much until you began hitting 900RWHP and then it was mostly the main caps as I understood it. This was on race gas. That was NOT always the case in that community! We got there slowly. So, I was pretty shocked to hear people in this community, on bigger 3.6l motors, fretting at the 600WHP mark. What is it about these motors that is so fragile exactly? Why exactly does anyone think 700WHP is hurting the motor and what are you sweating? Poor bearings? Rods? Pistons? These motors are a good bit bigger than the Supra, 600HP on good PUMP gas and decent turbos should NOT be scary if the motors have good rods\pistons. I am very happy to see folks like Titan, BoostLogic, and Justinn (others too) willing to push the stock motors more! Now, someone let me into the ECU please.... Okay one last thing after reading all this, run it rich and be safe, lean is not THAT much more power. Timing is where you find power - octane is your friend, detonation is most certainly NOT.
Great post. I started to respond to the same statement and stopped because you can basically write a book on the topic and still not come close to covering the fundamental points.
In regards to ignition timing, there is only so much adavnce you can run on a given octane, compression, boost level ect. This has nothing to do with built motor vs stock motor, it has everything to do with physics....
Keep in mind running too little timing to "limit torque" and keep a tune "safe and conservative" can lead to very bad things as well... Mainly egt's that go through the roof.
I previously had a very expensive and very well-built motor in my P-car...but you know what? My next P-car will retain the stock bottom end. I won't open that motor up. I simply see no reason to these days.
Quality bolt-ons, a good set of turbos, meth/water injection and a good tune is about as far as I'll go. A set up like that in the right car with the right driver will hit 4-second 60-130's and go 200+ in standing mile. What more could you ask for?
Quality bolt-ons, a good set of turbos, meth/water injection and a good tune is about as far as I'll go. A set up like that in the right car with the right driver will hit 4-second 60-130's and go 200+ in standing mile. What more could you ask for?
This is the path i've taken although without running C16 and running 1.65+ i'm not sure i'll see sub 5's. I think I can get very low 5's. I'll have Dyno numbers later that will confirm the minimum power requirement to get to 200+ in the Mile. I want to get my setup to run 700whp consistently and safely on the stock bottom end and i'll be happy. I think the car maintains ultimate driveability at that level.
Last edited by bmoores; Oct 22, 2009 at 07:46 AM.
Nobody is trying to justify anything, if want to crank you car up so be it.. there's been plenty of cars that have gone boom & some haven't. I built my car for myself, I do many track days & wanted the security.. If you crank your car up once in a while maybe you don't need a motor build to each is own...so why promote something "stock motor look" what does that mean exactly...it's not pushed? what? It can go faster? what? 
Ben has a stock motor...all I gave him was praise on how great his car runs..If you put great number up regardless of internals great!
Ben has a stock motor...all I gave him was praise on how great his car runs..If you put great number up regardless of internals great!
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Hey guys, this is my car....thanks for all the comments and discussion. There has been a lot of talk about the limits of a stock block and I'm glad these results can contribute to the community.
Couple things I want to point out b/c I see a few people have asked....the car is running stock ICs and intake piping. Down the road this is something I'll likely upgrade but for the time being I have decided not to.
I drive the car 99% of the time on pump gas and therefore ~600awhp is the cars "normal" power level. When I track the car (4-6 events a year) I usually run a mix of pump/race fuel and the pump gas file.
I can't tell if you're just making a joke or if you're half serious with thsi comment... With race fuel the Water/Meth (in my case 50/50 mix) is used for its cooling properties, not for octane boost. Since I'm running stock ICs the WI keeps IAT temps low and helps eliminate heat soak.
Couple things I want to point out b/c I see a few people have asked....the car is running stock ICs and intake piping. Down the road this is something I'll likely upgrade but for the time being I have decided not to.
I drive the car 99% of the time on pump gas and therefore ~600awhp is the cars "normal" power level. When I track the car (4-6 events a year) I usually run a mix of pump/race fuel and the pump gas file.
I can't tell if you're just making a joke or if you're half serious with thsi comment... With race fuel the Water/Meth (in my case 50/50 mix) is used for its cooling properties, not for octane boost. Since I'm running stock ICs the WI keeps IAT temps low and helps eliminate heat soak.
just making a joke, but seriously, fueling wise you are as safe as you can get. Hence why Top Fuel motors can make 8000 hp. without the fuel they use, they could not.
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Wow.... someone must have been retarding the crap out of the timing
I noticed you also have a Cooper or 2
I have an 07S and couldn't speak more highly of the car.btw, looks like Powell's car is slated for a today dyno
Justin
