Coolant gone, time to replace fittings
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Coolant gone, time to replace fittings
Good Afternoon,
A few days ago my 02 Turbo decided to spit out all of her coolant. Luckily I was only a few miles from home so the tow went rather smooth (after waiting 3 hours).
I have done a fair share of searching this topic to death and found that there are two main methods of fixing this situation. (I have yet to find the culprit but believe the leak to be coming from one of the more forward fittings as thats where she leaks from) It seems like most people either weld the fittings or pin them.
Any experiences on either solutions would be appreciated. I found this post (https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...ts-needed.html) which has helped me a ton so thank you JPFlip and anyone else that contributed. I have a great start on the parts list and a fantastic visual of what I will be getting myself into. I am trying to estimate what the total will be with all new parts (hoses, waterpump, coolant tank, sensor, etc)
Also anything to lookout for while in there that should be changed would be appreciated or even any tips/tricks.
Oh I also found these http://www.ebay.com/itm/Torque-Solut...cf8100&vxp=mtr anyone have any experience with these??
Thanks again!
Scott
A few days ago my 02 Turbo decided to spit out all of her coolant. Luckily I was only a few miles from home so the tow went rather smooth (after waiting 3 hours).
I have done a fair share of searching this topic to death and found that there are two main methods of fixing this situation. (I have yet to find the culprit but believe the leak to be coming from one of the more forward fittings as thats where she leaks from) It seems like most people either weld the fittings or pin them.
Any experiences on either solutions would be appreciated. I found this post (https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...ts-needed.html) which has helped me a ton so thank you JPFlip and anyone else that contributed. I have a great start on the parts list and a fantastic visual of what I will be getting myself into. I am trying to estimate what the total will be with all new parts (hoses, waterpump, coolant tank, sensor, etc)
Also anything to lookout for while in there that should be changed would be appreciated or even any tips/tricks.
Oh I also found these http://www.ebay.com/itm/Torque-Solut...cf8100&vxp=mtr anyone have any experience with these??
Thanks again!
Scott
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engine in or engine out? i have done this both ways. with the engine in you can't weld. saying you can pin them would be a struggle as well. engine out either option works. the downside with pinning is you are keeping the fittings from coming out not from seeping if the glue fails. if you remove the fittings so you can jb weld them you may as well weld them. pressure test them after and never worry about them again. figure 2 hrs welding work after everything is taken apart. about 75$ worth of gaskets and orings to reinstall .
if your simply pinning and jb weld a single fitting its cheap and only need a 90* drill from harbor freight (60$) and 8 6mm allen bolts and a 6mm tap red locktite. downside is there is the potential to get small particles of metal into the coolant system when drilling. even using grease on the drill bit and tap won't catch all of it. having said all that if i have to choose ill take welding. once and done forever
if your simply pinning and jb weld a single fitting its cheap and only need a 90* drill from harbor freight (60$) and 8 6mm allen bolts and a 6mm tap red locktite. downside is there is the potential to get small particles of metal into the coolant system when drilling. even using grease on the drill bit and tap won't catch all of it. having said all that if i have to choose ill take welding. once and done forever
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Welcome Etahgnimusnoc! I cannot add anything more to 32Krazy answer on this thread. we are exactly on the same wave length!
Except, try to found exactly were the leak comes from, lately we saw lots of hoses punctured....Our cars are getting old and rubber weak....
Except, try to found exactly were the leak comes from, lately we saw lots of hoses punctured....Our cars are getting old and rubber weak....
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Thanks guys! I was planning on having the motor come out and doing this once (hopefully). Just wondering if there is anything else I should do with the motor/trans out. Maybe take a look at the clutch was my only other thought.
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Also another interesting side to the arguement that I found on one of Sharkwerk's pages. http://sharkwerks.com/porsche/techni...urbo-cars.html
"Something that has gained a lot of popularity in recent months is the welding of these coolant lines, instead of pinning as we recommend. It might sound like an appealing solution, as a proper weld is nearly unbreakable. However we believe this is missing the point of the issue and is a riskier and possibly less reliable solution.
We've now seen at least three cars come in with welded lines that are leaking and so we discourage this practice. Each fix was done by a "top" welder or reputable independent Porsche tuner in our area. The weld fixes will show porosity (air pockets) or cracks in different places, and coolant will seep or drip, with pink cloudy residue near the welded lines. Some have lasted under 1000 miles.
We have seen welded lines that appear to be holding up fine, so we would not discredit the choice, but we also believe the pinning to be 100% reliable if done right.
We believe that welding is approaching the problem from the wrong angle: the problem is not that the coolant escapes around the tube (through the gap occupied by the glue) and it never has been: so welding and patching up the gap there is pointless.
The whole problem is the tubes eject from the engine causing massive coolant loss. Just locking those tubes in, with even the old factory glue, is sufficient to prevent a leak for the life of the vehicle. We have re-inspected our pinned lines on cars 50,000 miles later and the result is unchanged. Welds on the other hand on these pieces may eventually crack as the pipes and cast pieces heat and cool over the years at different rates.
As the temperature of the engine rises from ambient (0-40F degrees in winter perhaps) to operating temperature (210F+) the different metals in the pipe, cast piece and weld will all expand at different rates. This is where that factory glue (that is often criticized) works well: it is a great material for its expansion properties. It will expand evenly and turn softer. However if welded and fixed in place, the aluminum tubes, cast housings and weld material will contrast and expand at different rates. This may lead to cracking and failures as the pieces cannot flex or stretch evenly. Also, new weaknesses may be added to the factory pieces that were never a problem before.
Locally we have performed over 40 of the pinning fixes (probably closer to 60) and not one has leaked since the installation: we regularly see these cars for updates and inspections when doing other installations. The pins will never break and the glue should never leak.
Since it's unnecessary to weld in the first place, why make such a mess of your stock parts and permanently modify all those parts? In addition to the reasons above (missing the point of the problem) - the issue is that welding a thin metal tube (or thick in the case of the aftermarket ones) to a soft/porous cast housing is just a recipe for disaster. You simply cannot get the penetration right on both surfaces simultaneously, it's almost certain that your weld will penetrate through the cast piece easily (like a marshmallow) and have a hard time going through the tube (which is more like a very hard cheese). It will look like it's sticking to it but that's not how a weld works: unless you can inspect both sides of the weld you can't be certain it actually took. Even if it does, you cannot be sure that the weld will last, since this piece is constantly changing shape and size with temperature and each piece will change at different rates.
To reiterate, this is why as long term owners and enthusiasts for 996 and 997 GT3 and Turbo models, we do not recommend the "weld" fix for coolant repair and do not perform this repair in house. "
Thoughts??
"Something that has gained a lot of popularity in recent months is the welding of these coolant lines, instead of pinning as we recommend. It might sound like an appealing solution, as a proper weld is nearly unbreakable. However we believe this is missing the point of the issue and is a riskier and possibly less reliable solution.
We've now seen at least three cars come in with welded lines that are leaking and so we discourage this practice. Each fix was done by a "top" welder or reputable independent Porsche tuner in our area. The weld fixes will show porosity (air pockets) or cracks in different places, and coolant will seep or drip, with pink cloudy residue near the welded lines. Some have lasted under 1000 miles.
We have seen welded lines that appear to be holding up fine, so we would not discredit the choice, but we also believe the pinning to be 100% reliable if done right.
We believe that welding is approaching the problem from the wrong angle: the problem is not that the coolant escapes around the tube (through the gap occupied by the glue) and it never has been: so welding and patching up the gap there is pointless.
The whole problem is the tubes eject from the engine causing massive coolant loss. Just locking those tubes in, with even the old factory glue, is sufficient to prevent a leak for the life of the vehicle. We have re-inspected our pinned lines on cars 50,000 miles later and the result is unchanged. Welds on the other hand on these pieces may eventually crack as the pipes and cast pieces heat and cool over the years at different rates.
As the temperature of the engine rises from ambient (0-40F degrees in winter perhaps) to operating temperature (210F+) the different metals in the pipe, cast piece and weld will all expand at different rates. This is where that factory glue (that is often criticized) works well: it is a great material for its expansion properties. It will expand evenly and turn softer. However if welded and fixed in place, the aluminum tubes, cast housings and weld material will contrast and expand at different rates. This may lead to cracking and failures as the pieces cannot flex or stretch evenly. Also, new weaknesses may be added to the factory pieces that were never a problem before.
Locally we have performed over 40 of the pinning fixes (probably closer to 60) and not one has leaked since the installation: we regularly see these cars for updates and inspections when doing other installations. The pins will never break and the glue should never leak.
Since it's unnecessary to weld in the first place, why make such a mess of your stock parts and permanently modify all those parts? In addition to the reasons above (missing the point of the problem) - the issue is that welding a thin metal tube (or thick in the case of the aftermarket ones) to a soft/porous cast housing is just a recipe for disaster. You simply cannot get the penetration right on both surfaces simultaneously, it's almost certain that your weld will penetrate through the cast piece easily (like a marshmallow) and have a hard time going through the tube (which is more like a very hard cheese). It will look like it's sticking to it but that's not how a weld works: unless you can inspect both sides of the weld you can't be certain it actually took. Even if it does, you cannot be sure that the weld will last, since this piece is constantly changing shape and size with temperature and each piece will change at different rates.
To reiterate, this is why as long term owners and enthusiasts for 996 and 997 GT3 and Turbo models, we do not recommend the "weld" fix for coolant repair and do not perform this repair in house. "
Thoughts??
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You know another way that could be developed is a threaded method if it hasn't been done already. Male threaded billet inserts and female threaded on the housing. Some red locktite and /or safety wired someway and should never have to worry about it. Has anybody done it this way? Or does someone see issues with this way as well?
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Also another interesting side to the arguement that I found on one of Sharkwerk's pages. http://sharkwerks.com/porsche/techni...urbo-cars.html
"Something that has gained a lot of popularity in recent months is the welding of these coolant lines, instead of pinning as we recommend. It might sound like an appealing solution, as a proper weld is nearly unbreakable. However we believe this is missing the point of the issue and is a riskier and possibly less reliable solution.
We've now seen at least three cars come in with welded lines that are leaking and so we discourage this practice. Each fix was done by a "top" welder or reputable independent Porsche tuner in our area. The weld fixes will show porosity (air pockets) or cracks in different places, and coolant will seep or drip, with pink cloudy residue near the welded lines. Some have lasted under 1000 miles.
We have seen welded lines that appear to be holding up fine, so we would not discredit the choice, but we also believe the pinning to be 100% reliable if done right.
We believe that welding is approaching the problem from the wrong angle: the problem is not that the coolant escapes around the tube (through the gap occupied by the glue) and it never has been: so welding and patching up the gap there is pointless.
The whole problem is the tubes eject from the engine causing massive coolant loss. Just locking those tubes in, with even the old factory glue, is sufficient to prevent a leak for the life of the vehicle. We have re-inspected our pinned lines on cars 50,000 miles later and the result is unchanged. Welds on the other hand on these pieces may eventually crack as the pipes and cast pieces heat and cool over the years at different rates.
As the temperature of the engine rises from ambient (0-40F degrees in winter perhaps) to operating temperature (210F+) the different metals in the pipe, cast piece and weld will all expand at different rates. This is where that factory glue (that is often criticized) works well: it is a great material for its expansion properties. It will expand evenly and turn softer. However if welded and fixed in place, the aluminum tubes, cast housings and weld material will contrast and expand at different rates. This may lead to cracking and failures as the pieces cannot flex or stretch evenly. Also, new weaknesses may be added to the factory pieces that were never a problem before.
Locally we have performed over 40 of the pinning fixes (probably closer to 60) and not one has leaked since the installation: we regularly see these cars for updates and inspections when doing other installations. The pins will never break and the glue should never leak.
Since it's unnecessary to weld in the first place, why make such a mess of your stock parts and permanently modify all those parts? In addition to the reasons above (missing the point of the problem) - the issue is that welding a thin metal tube (or thick in the case of the aftermarket ones) to a soft/porous cast housing is just a recipe for disaster. You simply cannot get the penetration right on both surfaces simultaneously, it's almost certain that your weld will penetrate through the cast piece easily (like a marshmallow) and have a hard time going through the tube (which is more like a very hard cheese). It will look like it's sticking to it but that's not how a weld works: unless you can inspect both sides of the weld you can't be certain it actually took. Even if it does, you cannot be sure that the weld will last, since this piece is constantly changing shape and size with temperature and each piece will change at different rates.
To reiterate, this is why as long term owners and enthusiasts for 996 and 997 GT3 and Turbo models, we do not recommend the "weld" fix for coolant repair and do not perform this repair in house. "
Thoughts??
"Something that has gained a lot of popularity in recent months is the welding of these coolant lines, instead of pinning as we recommend. It might sound like an appealing solution, as a proper weld is nearly unbreakable. However we believe this is missing the point of the issue and is a riskier and possibly less reliable solution.
We've now seen at least three cars come in with welded lines that are leaking and so we discourage this practice. Each fix was done by a "top" welder or reputable independent Porsche tuner in our area. The weld fixes will show porosity (air pockets) or cracks in different places, and coolant will seep or drip, with pink cloudy residue near the welded lines. Some have lasted under 1000 miles.
We have seen welded lines that appear to be holding up fine, so we would not discredit the choice, but we also believe the pinning to be 100% reliable if done right.
We believe that welding is approaching the problem from the wrong angle: the problem is not that the coolant escapes around the tube (through the gap occupied by the glue) and it never has been: so welding and patching up the gap there is pointless.
The whole problem is the tubes eject from the engine causing massive coolant loss. Just locking those tubes in, with even the old factory glue, is sufficient to prevent a leak for the life of the vehicle. We have re-inspected our pinned lines on cars 50,000 miles later and the result is unchanged. Welds on the other hand on these pieces may eventually crack as the pipes and cast pieces heat and cool over the years at different rates.
As the temperature of the engine rises from ambient (0-40F degrees in winter perhaps) to operating temperature (210F+) the different metals in the pipe, cast piece and weld will all expand at different rates. This is where that factory glue (that is often criticized) works well: it is a great material for its expansion properties. It will expand evenly and turn softer. However if welded and fixed in place, the aluminum tubes, cast housings and weld material will contrast and expand at different rates. This may lead to cracking and failures as the pieces cannot flex or stretch evenly. Also, new weaknesses may be added to the factory pieces that were never a problem before.
Locally we have performed over 40 of the pinning fixes (probably closer to 60) and not one has leaked since the installation: we regularly see these cars for updates and inspections when doing other installations. The pins will never break and the glue should never leak.
Since it's unnecessary to weld in the first place, why make such a mess of your stock parts and permanently modify all those parts? In addition to the reasons above (missing the point of the problem) - the issue is that welding a thin metal tube (or thick in the case of the aftermarket ones) to a soft/porous cast housing is just a recipe for disaster. You simply cannot get the penetration right on both surfaces simultaneously, it's almost certain that your weld will penetrate through the cast piece easily (like a marshmallow) and have a hard time going through the tube (which is more like a very hard cheese). It will look like it's sticking to it but that's not how a weld works: unless you can inspect both sides of the weld you can't be certain it actually took. Even if it does, you cannot be sure that the weld will last, since this piece is constantly changing shape and size with temperature and each piece will change at different rates.
To reiterate, this is why as long term owners and enthusiasts for 996 and 997 GT3 and Turbo models, we do not recommend the "weld" fix for coolant repair and do not perform this repair in house. "
Thoughts??
You know another way that could be developed is a threaded method if it hasn't been done already. Male threaded billet inserts and female threaded on the housing. Some red locktite and /or safety wired someway and should never have to worry about it. Has anybody done it this way? Or does someone see issues with this way as well?
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Interesting reading. I got mine welded, did a pressure test while the engine was out and found leaks twice. Had to go back twice to the welder for the same fitting on the water pump housing due to porosity in the metal as mention in sharkwerks text. But never had a leak since....
My only concern is 3 out of 8 fittings I took off from my engine had epoxy in powder form....If you pin it you will not realized the epoxy condition....
My only concern is 3 out of 8 fittings I took off from my engine had epoxy in powder form....If you pin it you will not realized the epoxy condition....
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Knurling the fittings and using a proper epoxy ought to work with a pin. Welding seems a better way to go but finding the leaks and fixing them after a pressure test might not be fun. I'd pressure test an epoxy test too! I've not done this myself and am not sure which way I'll go but if the motor comes out in the future it's getting done so I can sleep better at night 
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I just went through all of this so I feel your pain. I discussed welding vs pinning with my shop and they recommended pinning a-la Sharkwerks. To be honest I think as long as the shop stands behind their work that might be more important than one method over the other. While they were in there I had all hoses replaced, water pump, drill and tap gt2 slave, clutch/lwfw, injectors, turbo intake piping, and a bunch of other misc stuff. You can get in deep if you don't have a goal in mind.
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I would pin and agree either would work as long as done correctly but most here like welding. Water pump-coolant tank- any hoses that cant be reached easily with motor in. Good time to do coils plugs if needed. Checking clutch and rear main seal not a bad idea.
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Also another interesting side to the arguement that I found on one of Sharkwerk's pages. http://sharkwerks.com/porsche/techni...urbo-cars.html
"Something that has gained a lot of popularity in recent months is the welding of these coolant lines, instead of pinning as we recommend. It might sound like an appealing solution, as a proper weld is nearly unbreakable. However we believe this is missing the point of the issue and is a riskier and possibly less reliable solution.
We've now seen at least three cars come in with welded lines that are leaking and so we discourage this practice. Each fix was done by a "top" welder or reputable independent Porsche tuner in our area. The weld fixes will show porosity (air pockets) or cracks in different places, and coolant will seep or drip, with pink cloudy residue near the welded lines. Some have lasted under 1000 miles.
We have seen welded lines that appear to be holding up fine, so we would not discredit the choice, but we also believe the pinning to be 100% reliable if done right.
We believe that welding is approaching the problem from the wrong angle: the problem is not that the coolant escapes around the tube (through the gap occupied by the glue) and it never has been: so welding and patching up the gap there is pointless.
The whole problem is the tubes eject from the engine causing massive coolant loss. Just locking those tubes in, with even the old factory glue, is sufficient to prevent a leak for the life of the vehicle. We have re-inspected our pinned lines on cars 50,000 miles later and the result is unchanged. Welds on the other hand on these pieces may eventually crack as the pipes and cast pieces heat and cool over the years at different rates.
As the temperature of the engine rises from ambient (0-40F degrees in winter perhaps) to operating temperature (210F+) the different metals in the pipe, cast piece and weld will all expand at different rates. This is where that factory glue (that is often criticized) works well: it is a great material for its expansion properties. It will expand evenly and turn softer. However if welded and fixed in place, the aluminum tubes, cast housings and weld material will contrast and expand at different rates. This may lead to cracking and failures as the pieces cannot flex or stretch evenly. Also, new weaknesses may be added to the factory pieces that were never a problem before.
Locally we have performed over 40 of the pinning fixes (probably closer to 60) and not one has leaked since the installation: we regularly see these cars for updates and inspections when doing other installations. The pins will never break and the glue should never leak.
Since it's unnecessary to weld in the first place, why make such a mess of your stock parts and permanently modify all those parts? In addition to the reasons above (missing the point of the problem) - the issue is that welding a thin metal tube (or thick in the case of the aftermarket ones) to a soft/porous cast housing is just a recipe for disaster. You simply cannot get the penetration right on both surfaces simultaneously, it's almost certain that your weld will penetrate through the cast piece easily (like a marshmallow) and have a hard time going through the tube (which is more like a very hard cheese). It will look like it's sticking to it but that's not how a weld works: unless you can inspect both sides of the weld you can't be certain it actually took. Even if it does, you cannot be sure that the weld will last, since this piece is constantly changing shape and size with temperature and each piece will change at different rates.
To reiterate, this is why as long term owners and enthusiasts for 996 and 997 GT3 and Turbo models, we do not recommend the "weld" fix for coolant repair and do not perform this repair in house. "
Thoughts??
"Something that has gained a lot of popularity in recent months is the welding of these coolant lines, instead of pinning as we recommend. It might sound like an appealing solution, as a proper weld is nearly unbreakable. However we believe this is missing the point of the issue and is a riskier and possibly less reliable solution.
We've now seen at least three cars come in with welded lines that are leaking and so we discourage this practice. Each fix was done by a "top" welder or reputable independent Porsche tuner in our area. The weld fixes will show porosity (air pockets) or cracks in different places, and coolant will seep or drip, with pink cloudy residue near the welded lines. Some have lasted under 1000 miles.
We have seen welded lines that appear to be holding up fine, so we would not discredit the choice, but we also believe the pinning to be 100% reliable if done right.
We believe that welding is approaching the problem from the wrong angle: the problem is not that the coolant escapes around the tube (through the gap occupied by the glue) and it never has been: so welding and patching up the gap there is pointless.
The whole problem is the tubes eject from the engine causing massive coolant loss. Just locking those tubes in, with even the old factory glue, is sufficient to prevent a leak for the life of the vehicle. We have re-inspected our pinned lines on cars 50,000 miles later and the result is unchanged. Welds on the other hand on these pieces may eventually crack as the pipes and cast pieces heat and cool over the years at different rates.
As the temperature of the engine rises from ambient (0-40F degrees in winter perhaps) to operating temperature (210F+) the different metals in the pipe, cast piece and weld will all expand at different rates. This is where that factory glue (that is often criticized) works well: it is a great material for its expansion properties. It will expand evenly and turn softer. However if welded and fixed in place, the aluminum tubes, cast housings and weld material will contrast and expand at different rates. This may lead to cracking and failures as the pieces cannot flex or stretch evenly. Also, new weaknesses may be added to the factory pieces that were never a problem before.
Locally we have performed over 40 of the pinning fixes (probably closer to 60) and not one has leaked since the installation: we regularly see these cars for updates and inspections when doing other installations. The pins will never break and the glue should never leak.
Since it's unnecessary to weld in the first place, why make such a mess of your stock parts and permanently modify all those parts? In addition to the reasons above (missing the point of the problem) - the issue is that welding a thin metal tube (or thick in the case of the aftermarket ones) to a soft/porous cast housing is just a recipe for disaster. You simply cannot get the penetration right on both surfaces simultaneously, it's almost certain that your weld will penetrate through the cast piece easily (like a marshmallow) and have a hard time going through the tube (which is more like a very hard cheese). It will look like it's sticking to it but that's not how a weld works: unless you can inspect both sides of the weld you can't be certain it actually took. Even if it does, you cannot be sure that the weld will last, since this piece is constantly changing shape and size with temperature and each piece will change at different rates.
To reiterate, this is why as long term owners and enthusiasts for 996 and 997 GT3 and Turbo models, we do not recommend the "weld" fix for coolant repair and do not perform this repair in house. "
Thoughts??
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my point is sharkwerks claims that simple pinning will fix this and it will not come out but IT WILL leak. i had coolant all over mixed with oil and dirt from the motor making a huge mess. pinning can't fix that. welding can. i don't disagree with the different temps expanding and contracting but a qualified welder can weld theses metals with zero issues.
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the fitting on the 3.8 motor i had leaking was under the oil cooler. it was held in place by the housing and the rubber line attached to it. because its horizontal it was loose in the housing and leaking every were. it hadn't come out because it was trapped. when i removed the hose from the other end it fell out.
my point is sharkwerks claims that simple pinning will fix this and it will not come out but IT WILL leak. i had coolant all over mixed with oil and dirt from the motor making a huge mess. pinning can't fix that. welding can. i don't disagree with the different temps expanding and contracting but a qualified welder can weld theses metals with zero issues.
my point is sharkwerks claims that simple pinning will fix this and it will not come out but IT WILL leak. i had coolant all over mixed with oil and dirt from the motor making a huge mess. pinning can't fix that. welding can. i don't disagree with the different temps expanding and contracting but a qualified welder can weld theses metals with zero issues.
my *feeling* is that while pinning/welding ( and that new kit is it vivid that is selling?! ) coupled with proper re-fitment is undoubtedly the optimal way to do this. yet, i myself would just jb weld em.
all this needs to be qualified in that i'm not *road coursing* with any potential "victims" behind me. bottom line is i defer to your experience and would still goop em up with that cheap sh*t lol. sorry to say, as i do pick my battles with this car, and feel i could get away with that as a "fix".
who really knows.
Last edited by '02996ttx50; Jul 8, 2015 at 12:20 PM.