glad to see this thread has finally rerouted back in a positive direction it was getting ugly for a while there.

 

I agree with your "overpriced" comment about both kits. For 6k or so I would be a player also, but it's hard for me to justify over 10 grand for something with no return on investment just for fun.
I remember a while back someone mentioned a group buy, I wonder what could be saved one one kit or the other if several people bought them together. I know they would sell twice as many if they didn't price them so high, and then they have their R&D costs covered that way too.

 

Todd how many Evo kits are on the road?

 

Hey dog... having installed a few 3.4s and 3.6s I can tell you the 3.6L ones are obviously a good deal faster. 1st and 2nd you'll spin tires I know the difference is about 50-65HP so if you can try to compare a 3.6L vs a 3.6L....

 

Is there a reason that no one is offering a turbo kit for the 996? It would combine the strengths of both the centrifugal and roots blowers with few of the shortcomings. I'd love to see a GT30R running at 5psi on my 996

-shiv

 

Hmm a GT30R on a 3.4L or 3.6L would be kinda laggy... However you could make decent power. You'd need to change a lot more stuff though that's for sure. PLumbing, Flanges galore, intake etc..... Go for it

Only 5psi?!

 

Sharky: Had a hard time just finding a 3.4, never mind the 3.6. I'll have to take your word for it. 50 more HP is lot, so it's certainly believable.


There are TT kits made for the 996. For instance, promotive makes a stage one TT for around 25K dollars. I think that's crazy. I think the pricing on the SC is crazy too, but the TT kit is just out of control. I would just assume sell my car and put the 25K into a used TT. I can't for the life of me figure out why it's so expensive. I do know you have to do a custom rear deck lid to accodmate the intercooler, so that's probalby about 5K ( that's about what the techart type II is installed and painted). Where they get the other 20K from I have no idea, but I'm pretty sure there's more labor cost than parts there. That being said, I'm sure it's an awesome kit. Just that can't imagine spending that kind of money to retrofit a 996. Money is probably better spent buying a new car. Would be a hell of a sleeper though as his stage one does 470 to the wheels and I'm sure it's reasonably reliable as they really seem to know what they're doing.

 

Not sure if it really matters at this point but typically roots type blower creates substantial heat over the centrifugal units. They also loose efficiency up top. Not saying that some centrifugal don't, but most maintain a better efficiency rating due to heat on the top end. Not always but a good general rule of thumb. They also require more HP to make HP. Nothing is free in the supercharger game.

Also FWIW we have dealt with the 7th injector theory for years on the 930s. They create a wet intake on a system that was design to flow dry. Most factory intakes flow air rather well. Not great, but well. The issue comes up when you insert gas mist into the system. The air then becomes more dense thus creating pockets of restriction around runners etc. The end result is the system creates hot and cold spots since the gas will not flow like air. This is not picked up in AFRs generally since several of the cylinders are overly rich. Data logging each bank with EGT and AFR will show this issue, most don’t do this. Ideally you want the injector firing to the back of the valve for various reasons. For our example it is to mix in the chamber instead of being hung up in the intake. The 930s typically would run for a while. Fueling the 2 and 5 cylinder rather well. However 3 and 6 being the worse flowing cylinders in time would melt down. You can observe the difference in flow characteristics on a flow bench and see how different the air reacts with a wet element in it. By using larger injectors and the ECU to control them you can turn the duty cycle down to bring the fuel delivery down at idle. Delivery with larger injectors use to be an issue on batched systems. Since the 993 the systems haven’t been batch, rather sequential. The end result is the system fires that injector rather than the batch of them. FWIW I have successfully through the years been able to batch fire 82# injectors and still maintain a good idle and drivability. Not easy, but could be done. That was in the old days. With the new type of injectors and sequential using a larger injector is only limited to the input it receives. So in other words you must be able to control the signal and software of the ECU.

One of the other things that concerns me as it has shown to be an issue in the past is the piggy back systems. Lots of cars and bikes use them without issue. Lots don’t. For example the way the Motronic is setup compared to that of a Delco or Nippendenso system is very different. The amount of information passed through the ECU is greater due to various inputs and output requirements. Most related to the valve train etc. It is critical that the information interpreted to the computer be precise and quick. When an interpreter is used is clouds the signal and skews inputs on some things and not on others. The Motronic in our car is smarter than that. It looks for various inputs and knows that if A is in range yet B shows something else then there is an issue. Short term is not a problem, long term creates drivability issues and so on. We saw this with the TT. Most systems now have been removed and changed.

Changing the actual program allows the ECU to remain active and control all of its ranges and safeties. It is imperative that for the long run the system have its adaptation and safety systems in check. Otherwise should something go astray the system is being feed information that is skewed in order to achieve desired results. The Caveat here is not all systems are like this. Motronic is one of the most elaborate systems in production. The amount of information compared to some other manufactures is truly staggering.

Now the last part so you all know I am fair. I am a friend of Todd’s and one of his largest dealers. However as most will tell you I have been in this game for some time and do not make exceptions when it comes to advice nor my integrity. I have experience with both systems and even the early 993 TPC systems. I choose to install the EVO units. This is what I would use in my own vehicle if I only needed 400ish HP

 

Stephen, DOG is not interested in facts. He judges things by "FEEL". The TPC "feels" faster to him, even tho he has never driven either system and never compared their performance to, let's say 60, 80, 100 mph.. Todd is more patient with him than I would be. I would NEVER sell him a system. Could you imagine the headaches this guy would make for whoever did the install? If he lost air pressure in his front tire, he would be all over them blaming the system for the loss of air. LOL.

It's one thing for someone who knows the working of a system to argue it's faults/benefits, but for someone who has absolutely no experience or even basic underdstanding of a supercharger, it's, really funny. It's entertaining reading.

 

Having driven both (and owned the 3.6v.), I will say there is a significantly felt difference btw the 3.4 and the 3.6. I'm sorry but all this talk of no down low is really kind of ridiculous. I think you guys have really all forgotten what your cars felt like stock. And truth be told and with all due respect, if you haven't driven one...how can you honestly make a judgement call on something you wish to spend $6000 on (That sells for $10k), Dog? I thought you were going to drive it, not ride in it. I appreciate all the time you spent putting this information together for everyone, but really, if you are on the fence, DRIVE it....don't passenger in both cars and then make your call, you'll forever be second guessing yourself. I also would like to ask why you feel the SCs are over priced?

If it's too much money, just change your suspension and do a few DE's. I can't say enough that you need to drive the car...and if it's this decsion is SO important, a few hundred bucks spent on airfare to go drive one would be worth it and good ROI if you ask me. Hell, I'd offer up my car for you to test if it was still installed. I'm sure you could find someone to let you drive both.

I appreciate Todd's contributions to showing us numbers. They are terrific. But, I think the best test is the butt pucker one ...and you aren't going to get that from the passenger seat.

 

Dog, I'm also surprised and disappointed that you didn't drive that EVO SC car. All fast cars feel fast in the passenger seat when you're not in control. You should know that. Go back and drive the dang thing. Actually, forget about the SCs altogether. Fly out here and test drive Robyn's new TT, then you'll wonder why you're wasting your time. Just ask Robyn, she knows now where excess money should've been spent all along

Of course if you really prefer NA porsches, then save your money and go straight to this...

https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...threadid=34790

Oh, Robyn knows how/where to get you a good car loan too

 

1999porsche911 or whatever screen name you're posting under these days, just go away dude. leave the thread, if you don't mind. i thought you said you were done, but you re-emerge even after that horribly embassing post about getting busted posting under two screen names to support yourself in an argument on another forum. you've offered nothing to this discussion other than personal attacks and the fact that you can beat every other car on the planet. i think my posts have fair and accurate based on the info i have been given by both manufactuers. why cant you just have a normal discussion? TPC presents one set of facts, EVO another. I'm just the messenger posting what i have heard from both. I think my impressions of the EVO after riding in were pretty good and fair. I am not trying to hurt your feeling saying the 3.6 TPC was faster than the 3.4 EVO, but that's the way it felt. it had a lot more power down low...although probably sacrificing longevity in the process. people wanted to know what i thought...i posted it. deal with it. i'm sure the 3.6 EVO with the 50 more HP is a whole different ball game. I apoligize for not being able to get both cars at the same location and do dyno/drag race runs. I had a hard enough finding two cars, let alone getting them in the same place.


Robyn: I was not offered to drive the TPC car. I probably could have, but he didn't offer and I didn't ask. Frankly, I've driven enough fast cars and the ride was enough for me. As I said before, it allowed me the opportunity to concentrate on what the car was doing and not the traffic, cops, or corners The EVO guy offered to let me drive, but I knew it would not be the same experience so I chose to go passenger again. Both drivers were excellent. The TPC guy is DE, DE instructor and the EVO guy raced SCCA. I know they were both getting the most out of their cars.

With regards to power down low, sorry but the EVO lacks compared to the TPC. It's just the nature of the way these two kits work. The power was great when you had the steam going. I asked the owner of the EVO car what his impressions were, and he said that the car was fast as hell, but lacked low end. It's not less than stock of course, but just didn't have that huge power increase on the bottom. I would be more than happy to try and get him to post here if anyone is interested. I felt the same way. He hammered it in first at about 3K and the car didn't do anything till 5K. You could really feel it hit. Now once he got it in 2nd and kept in the throttle, it was a whole different story. Power stayed on long and strong. Boy that sounded like a cliche All that being said, still wasn't a fair comparison because the 3.4 EVO is already down 50 HP compared to the 3.6. The TPC car was a 3.6, so it certainly wasn't an apples to apples comparison.

You ask why I think the kits are little overpriced....well look at the SC kits for most other cars (mustangs, vettes, GTI's, whatever...). They are way less money. But there are two things I've learned so far. One, owning a pcar is expensive. That's just the way it goes. Cost of ownership. That's why TT customers will pay $5K for an exhaust. I call it the Pcar tax. I'm sure it applies to Lambos and Fcars as well. But with regards to this kit, I understand that EVO and TPC will only sell a limited number of these kits, compared to what say Vortech will sell to mustang or vette owners. It takes a lot of R&D to bring a kit to market. With limited sales in comparison to mustangs, etc...the only way they can make any money is to put more margin in the price instead of trying to make it up in volume. i can accept that. these people have to eat too i wouldn't want to spends hundreds of hours and thousands in delopment to only sell a hundred or so kits and make $500 a kit. so i'm cool with that.

I still walked away pretty impressed with EVO. The power delivery up high was excellent with normal driveability down low. I think EVO's biggest advantage is the national dealer network and support. Not to mention that the piggy back works on the TPC, but I can see the advantages of the ECU flashing in the hands of a good tuner and maintaining close to stock parameters for long term reliablity.

Oh and 1999, I don't get the crack about me being a bad customer. I'd say to the contrary as I think I am getting a pretty good grasp of what's going on with these kits as opposed to someone just plunking down the cash and saying "make my car faster". I have a good understand of what to expect and have no false expections either way. If you want to participate, feel free. I don't want to start this back and forth **** with you. It gows tiresome and no one is learning anything from it.

 

collin, i'm just hooked on cabs. not to mention my wife (oops i mean my mom per 1999) says she looks cute with the top down.

if the TT cab was even remotely in my budget, i would be all over it. frankly i can't afford one and even if could, i'm not ready to go and mod a whole new car all over again. i have mine just the way i like it someday maybe, for now...forced induction.

 

with regards to driving and riding, i've posted why i did it. i already have set of precedent with the TPC car, so it's still a fair comparison, especially since I've ridden in my car as a passenger to know what stock feels like. In a perfect world, would drive all three back to back, just couldn't swing it this time. that's the best i could do. it would have been a lot easier if everybody and their brother had one of these kits.

 

I agree about the overpriced part, but then again I think a lot of Porsche mods are overpriced. Like you said, nature of owning a P-Car.

D-Dog, I don't believe your wife looks good in a cab, your full of BS! I thnk you need to prove it.