i guess CARB has been put on hold. the silence is deafening

 

I am aware that their system does make more TQ. That is the difference between a centrifugal SC vs. a positive displacement unit. There are many reasons why we have chose to use the centrifugal SC. We feel that this is a safer long-term upgrade for this and many other reasons when comparing the 2 different systems.

 

Not on hold. We are still working with CARB to get it done

 

just got my car smogged and will be getting the evo SC installed soon. hopefully it will be CARB certified before i have to get it smogged again in 2 years.

a quick question. if i remove the SC and flash back to stock will the car run smoothly with the uprated injectors?

 

I have an EVO SC and it's very impressive as far as power compared to a regular NA 996.
I have not tracked it yet, it's back at EVO right now, (hopefully Todd will get it done real soon) but I will track it when the opportunity arises.
I haven't seen a single TPC car yet, so just looking at the numbers, I would feel more at ease with a EVO car. Has anybody asked TPC how many cars they have on the road today?

 

If I remember right, I think TPC has about 20 kits out there.

Here's a pic of the kit and the contents. They also offer the 3rd radiator as an option.

 

wow that doesn't seem like alot of parts for $10k.

 

Good thread so far. I think its more like a "supercharging 101" but with a lot more (A) factual and (B) aftermarket info needed.

(A) Factually speaking:
The Vortech centrifugal unit is an OEM unit just like the Eaton. Toyota (TRD) have kicked Eaton to the sideline 12 months ago in favour of Vortech and soon you will see 5 different OEM vehicles with dealer and soon to be port installed vortech kits. This means they will be EPA approved. Vortech have cast TRDs name onto their units and designed kits for them. Chrysler and Ford are planning to do the same. Right now there are OEM endurance tests going on in Michigan with Vortech units.

Why? Because roots units such as the Eaton, cause higher emmissions than centrifugal units such as Vortech, because of load.

Vortech units can run 20 psi with approx 20hp draw. Eaton units become very ineffecient when attempting over 10psi and draw upwards of over 40hp at that point on a like for like application.
This info is direct from their respective manufacturers.

(B) Aftermarket-wise,
Its so easy. If you really want to get down and dirty, here are some more facts:

1)The TPC 996 superchager kit uses a black box to control fuelling of a $60,000 car. This means the ECU is being bluffed to force the car to run within tolerances set by TPC and is limited to those conditions only without the dynamics of an OEM ECU.

2) The TPC 996 supercharger kit uses an additional fuel injector and driver. This means you have to "T-splice" into your fuel lines and your $60,000 6-cylinder car is being fuelled by 7 injectors! How nice.

Now, take the above 2 facts to any slightly technically minded inquisitive car enthusiast and the choice is simple. Ask yourself, would you fit the above kind of a product to your car, or an:

3) EVO 996 supercharger kit which is tuned by Garrett Lim from GIAC. GIAC has been tuning Bosch and Siemens ECUs for 10 years producing 800whp 996 twin turbos with EVO and retaining the OEM ECU. GIAC were the first to make the 959 Porsche CARB legal by re-writing the OEM ECU software.

4) EVO 996 supercharger kit which uses 6 larger replacement direct drop in (no injector rail spacers) Bosch fuel injectors and was tested for air fuel ratios with and without load, in temps upto 110 degF ambient. Injector pulse (known as duty cycle) has been tested, knock activity, IAT, ECT, EGT, EOT etc etc have all been logged and analysed.

If you want to compare EVO Vs TPC, visit their facilities and look at their products and try their customer service. You will find a very clear distinction between. As well as functionality EVO has presentation and class. EVO is envied by most aftermarket companies especially in the Porsche industry. There are dozens of companies who can hand build one-off race cars. But only one or two can build aftermarket products at this technical level that can be shipped and supported anywhere in the world and installed at a Porsche or independent workshop. Who will stand behind their work?

For the answer to that, and the title of this thread, try asking THE EDITOR of European Car magazine what happened to his pride and joy, Boxster ? and did they fix it? .....it was not pretty. EVO does not make a Boxster kit.

 

nik, you're info is interesting, but we're not talking about toyotas here. by the way, are you affiliated with EVO or GIAC? For a guy with 6 posts, you seem to have a lot of very specific knowledge about the EVO/GIAC products/company. Your timing of joing the board (today) and jumping into this thread is interesting.

well, if the eaton causes higher emissions, then why is TPC carb approved and EVO not? and the EVO has been in the hands of the public for much longer....

with regards to higher boost from the cetrif unit, who cares in our application? the current boost (i believe around 6 psi for both kits) is about all the car can safely/reliably handle anyway.... so what is the advatage of more boost for a NA pcar?

you didn't mention anything about the maintenace and reliability of the two. as long as we're pointing out facts, the centri taps into the engines' oil supply. i have no idea what the maintenance and longetivity are for them and it's probably pretty good. the eaton kit has it's own oil supply and is maintenance free for 100K miles. not to mention there is no risk of an oil line either coming loose or severed and starving the SC. Probably due to improper install, but we have already seen several oil lines fail on the EVO kit.


The black box as you call it, is in my opinion, is not inferior to an ecu flash. I'm not sure why you're badmouthing it. They have been using simple versions of these "black boxes" on high performance motorcycles for years. Tuning isn't rocket science. Dyno runs with A/F measurements, then make your adjustments. This SC application is much simpler than a turbo application. I could be wrong, but it's my understand that boost is controlled by the pulley size, and there's not any computer management over that function, as comared to the turbos. I'm not saying progamming is easy, but it's not hard for people with experience. Now a really good tuner like GIAC, etc..., I will agree knows how to smooth it out and get every bit of HP out of car. I see no advantage or disadvantage to either way of doing it. If using the black box the car doesnt' run too lean/rich, doesn't over rev, has smooth idle and off idle response, then who cares? I just don't see your logic. I have a lot of respect for EVO/GIAC, but they're not the only ones that know how to do this type or work.

Now on two the whole multiple injector thing, TPC could have done it either way. They tested both setups and found the "7th" injector to be a better way of doing it for their application. The price difference is not significant at this point and they would have just passed it on to the customer if they thought it was necessary anyway. They feel that after testing both, it just works better for their application using their eaton unit. I don't understand your "that's ghetto" implication. I've done some research into the "7th" injector and it's not uncommon at all for tuners to do this in high performance setups.

with regards to MY996's question about pricing.... I have asked both companies this. basically, it boils down to the fact that it takes a tremendous amount of R&D to produce these kits. they will sell a negligble amounts of kits to porsche owners, comared to the import tuner community who sells thousands of them. basically i took that to mean that they build more margin into the product to make up for the lack of volume. neither one said this, but i'm sure there's a "pcar tax" on there too, as everything is just more expensive on these cars

the TPC kit includes an air intake, which is not shown in the pic. the TPC kit is a little more expensive with the 3rd radiator option (extra $600). Why, because the eaton SC is simply more expensive than the Centri unit. both kits have a very similar parts list.

i think they're both great kits. just a little different way of doing it. i have been in a TPC car with over 12K trouble free supercharged miles and three hard track days (the owner is a DE instructor instructor). the car has a total of about 25K miles. roverron on here also has one. niether has reported any problems at all. the evo kit seems to work well too. i haven't heard any major issues out of their owners either. just little stuff like the oil lines and the redline being too low.

i think it boils down to how you want your power served up. i have not been in an EVO car yet. looking like it has a more peaky power delivery than the TPC, but still delivers lots of HP and torque. now,the TPC on the other hand feels like you put a big V8 in there. instant power/torque from down low all the way up to the redline. all about personal preference. i'm sure the evo car drives very much like a normal pcar when not high in the rpms and at very low boost. some people will definatley prefer this. as i said before, both are good and reliable....you just have to decide how you want your power.......

 

Thats for sure. This is one great thread. I wish there was a way to sit in a car by car comparison. On the other hand, any one have any influence on what Excellence conducts research for articles on? - I know I saw an article on EVO a while back (not in Excellence but some other mag).

 

EVO is definately more well known. They have an outstanding marketing department and their website is fantastic.

I hope to get behind the wheel of an EVO this week. Based on everything I know so far, I am still leaning towards the TPC. It was so fast and did not feel like a boosted car and there was no lag at all, at almost any rpm. Started like a champ cold and ran really smooth. No stalling, no cel's, nothing but riddiculous power The owner of the car did say that he does get a cel from time to time, just like the evo product. Not sure there is a way around that.

 

Oh, as far as customer service goes, both EVO and TPC have been great, at least in the pre purcase segment. They both always answer the phone and have been incredibly helpful with my questions. If EVO was using the eaton SC, I may lean that way.

 

IF EVO was using the Eaton, they would have a less performing engine just like the TPC. Apparently you have convinced yourself that the TPC is better, not based on facts, but on something else. That's fine, but the perfromance facts in the real world do not support your decision. You will find more and more companies dumping the roots blower in favor or the more efficient, cooler running, higher air flow, better drivable power curve centrifuge compressor. Remember, a roots blower is not a compressor and all compression is done outside the unit.

The roots blower runs hotter and injects much hotter air into the intake than a centrifuge compressor does. With or without an intercooler. Real world intake temps are like this. Drive both an EVO and a TPC system for an hour, leisurely around town on an 80F day. Now measure the air in the intake (not at the filter, or the plumbing, but the intake) You will find that the TPC blows in temperatures that range from 60 - 100F above ambient temperatures. The EVO maintains temps at a much lower level.

If you like power flat lining beginning at around 5500 rpm's, then the TPC is for you. If you like a solid, continious build in power up to redline, then go EVO.

For some reason, you believe that running the same oil in the blower for 100,000 miles is more beneficial than running fresh, cooler oil that is change peroordically. The oil that lubricates the EVO blower is much cooler than the oil in the TPC unit.

I have run against several 993 and 1 996 with TPC units running higher boost level than the EVO, and they just cannot keep up with the stock EVO system. They have a slight pull over me at very low speeds, but that advantage is lost very quickly and they just can't keep up. I am not talking about a few car lengths, but in an open road race from stop, the TPC ends up several car length behind at the 120MPH mark. On hot days, it is even worse.

 

so if you opt for the intercooled version, does that include water pumps to circulate the coolant? is that an extra expense too? how much power does the non intercooled version create?

IMHO, even though i have nothing against the 7th injector, it would be a much more rounded out product if they included uprated injectors. i just feel that there is one less thing to go wrong.

nice piping on the TPC kit though.

BTW, i don't think the TPC is CARB certified. just like the evo kit, it retains all emissions equipment but that doesn't mean it's certified. if TPC is indeed CARB certified then please quote it. cheers

where did you get that marketing blurb from TPC? it's not on their site. did they send it to you? are you advertising for them now?

 

oh ya, does the EVO kit retain the engine compartment fan? i know from deputy's phone pics that the TPC gets rid of it.