I echo yrralis1's thoughts completely. The are both great. Something about the pure effortless acceleration that the PDK provides with instant gear shifting that is quite an orgasmic experience for me. Now I could get one in 6speed like him to get the best of both worlds but am quite sure that my wife will kick me out of the house .

 

+1. Me too. Nothing beats the shifting yourself.

 

id like to add i test drove the pana tt and the pdk is great . im probably gonna get one when the prices drop a bit. but i definately like my 911's in stick.

 

Maybe I'm sick but even in stop and go traffic I enjoy being able to feather the clutch and throttle just the right amount to move up, etc. The only time it's a drag is if I'm on an incline and that's because I know I'm "hurting" the clutch.

 

I'm with you.

But you need to get one of those air-cooled babies like we've got. Nevermind 6-speed vs. PDK.

Now if only I could find a good, low-mileage 930T-RWD, no ABS, no power steering-only throttle power steering. Of course I would have to tune it, but....

 

Regarding the M3 stats . (apples to oranges).
Both the M3 manual and DCT although similar in prenciple are not identical in quality and refinement as with Porsche .

The BMW manual is even sloppier than a Honda and the DCT has documented issues --none of with are applicable to Porsche regarding both .

 

It's not apples to oranges, both times are representative of what you'd expect from an M3 on those circuits regardless of any issues.

The documented issues with the M3 are from Drive mode, not manual shifting mode and will have no affect on full speed lap times in manual mode.

An M3 does not become a GT3 with a DCT.

But if you like we can take the same numbers from a EVO X

We can also look at the 997's with PDK which are no faster unless Porsche puts them on faster tires.

Either way there is no test that proves the myth, only tests that disprove it.

 

That statement has appeared in the car mags.

 

The new 458 is not available with 6 speed and clutch.

 

While I really enjoy my 6 speed, I personally would buy a PDK version. Having owned an M6 I felt just as involved with SMG. And no I don't intend to relive the M6 board thread on this topic from 3 years ago, but I do believe in progress.

If we truly believe in driver involvement then why not eliminate power accessories for steering, brakes, suspension etc? Or better yet, lets get rid of syncromesh and go back to double clutching! Just kidding of course, but where do we take/accept progress?

We accept progress on many fronts in our cars, including items of driver involvement as mentioned above. So why not do something different with our left feet, like braking?

I know this doesn't replace a really good heel and toe downshift, nor the feedback and feel of clutch uptake and let out.

Ferrari have made a bold statement with no six speed manual in the 458. We'll see if they stick to it (pun intended). But it is a sign of the times and we'll see if VW ownership sticks with a six speed option going forward on our turbos.

 

Without a clutch pedal, the orchestra-conductor-like movement of a shifter, and the ability to heel-toe/double clutch/rev match, no automated gearbox can possibly give the same driver involvement as a traditional manual gearbox. I do not think those things are comparable to a traditional manual gearbox. Those particular advancements have significant safety/drivability influences whereas the difference between PDK/Traditional is simply that PDK is "faster" If you are left foot braking on the street, then you are either insane or an 80 year old living in Florida. The 997TT is not a hardcore race car, it is a car designed for year-round street use that can also do exceptionally well at a track. If you want a hardcore racecar I don't think the turbo is the right car for you to begin with. Also, let's not forget that this isn't a cry to Porsche to discontinue the PDK, it's a cry that they NOT discontinue the traditional manual gearbox. Porsche can have 50 gearbox choices for all I care, as long as they still offer the trusty clutch and manual gear shifter as one of them. I think the move away from 6-speeds is also driven by the stupidity/ineptness of drivers. As stated previously in this thread, with an automated gearbox there's predictable clutchwear, no over-revving, and overall more control by the car/manufacturer. I am not so sure I'd immediately assume you know what "statement" Ferrari is trying to make. They may be trying to say "our customers can't drive" as much as they are saying "6-speeds are dinosaurs". We don't really know. -m

 

There is a such thing as advancing technology without adding more computer controls. Drivers are getting worse and worse because there is no skilled involved with normal day to day driving and the expectation is for the car to do everything for you. For every electronic solution there is a mechanical one that still involves the driver using actual needed skills to pilot instead of making cars into video games.

But seriously, power steering has nothing to do with a manual gearbox. Maybe if you just had to turn your head for the car to turn, that would be comparable, but the driver having to still aim the car without having to overcome the friction of the tires with pure force is nonsensical. Hydrolic manual clutches and electronic automated ones are not the same thing.

Like I said, there is advancement without being caveman'ish or resorting to the first vehicles with 10 levers.

There is room for both, but at the current rate we will ALL be passengers in the near future (even in the drivers seat).

 

love the thread. question is what is a "driver's car?" does it really matter pdk or 6sp if the car is 3500 lbs, heavy leather everywhere and sound dampening, has 3 or 4 layers of electronics, and fake "ceramic" brakes that cost a fortune but get eaten up by pasm?

if u drive a 430 scuderia it feels alive on a track. yes you don't need to heel toe to downshift, but u do need to hit your braking spots accurately and get on the throttle smoothly and aggressively and mind your trackout. i think the relatively narrow tires contribute hugely to the fun out there, and obviously the neutral handling. but i'm not sure the lack of 6sp even enters the conversation when u finish some hot laps and come into the pits with a huge ****e-eating grin.

i'd never pay $250-300k for a ferrari cause i don't like the way they look around town, but i'd def pay $150k for a P car that is stripped bare down to carbon fibre and metal in the cabin without any stupid door compartments or clocks on the dash, has solid engine mounts, a very very loud turbocharged engine (porsche is famous for turbos in racing, NOT n/a!!!!) with 500hp and a crazy slammed suspension. i guess the gt2 is close but the interior blows. if it means paddles, then so be it i guess as long as the overall package delivers a light no compromise sports car that is menacing and vicious and fun on the track.

 

These replies have been super interesting and I bet there is a correlation between age and the desire to shift. I am also sure that I am the minority being mid 30's and loving the old school approach to driving. Who ever said by an aircooled car, well, that is my next step.
I do believe lawyers have more to do with lack of manuals then the public's opinion. How many times have we seen an over rev?
As for Ferrari, I doubt I would ever buy one and as for the new 458 well it lost me at hello.

 

i am with you 6 speed